Bill Nelson Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 The packages of RCA-distributed Pablos came to our college radio station (WRIU-FM, Kingston, RI) in such profuse quantity, it became hard to differentiate among the them. We had at least a dozen 'Trumpet Kings' LPs, often accompanied by a regular (Peterson) from the Granz stable. Within our jazz library, I can recall the blur of all those LPs with back-and-white cover photos of of Oscar Peterson, Ella, Joe Pass, Louis Bellson, Jon Faddis, etc. I'm sure this abundance of Pablos had a net effect on the level jazz education and awareness among our staff and audience but eventually we had to thin about 75% of them out of our library. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Friedman Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 This thread has been interesting to me. The general thrust seems to have been to be rather negative toward Verve, Pablo and Norman Granz. While I can agree with some of the criticisms, for me the more important factor is the number of treasured recordings I have in my collection on Verve and Pablo. To identify them all would make for an extremely lengthy list. The many gems by artists such as Zoot Sims, Coleman Hawkins, Ben Webster, Sweets Edison, Stan Getz, Dizzy Gillespie, Lionel Hampton, Roy Eldridge, Johnny Hodges, Count Basie, Benny Carter, Tal Farlow, Lee Konitz, Milt Jackson, Gerry Mulligan, Bob Brookmeyer and Sonny Stitt are recordings that have afforded me a great amount of musical pleasure over many many years. I would have hated to have been without them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 Thank god for Norman but why the heck wasn't he better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Ptah Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 Richard Davis said something to our jazz history class, "it's easy to sit on a couch, years later, and criticize someone who was out really doing something at a time when it wasn't easy to do it." He was talking about Louis Armstrong's live performances and the negative comments people made about them years later. I think this could apply to Pablo Records though. In the 1970s, who else was going to release albums by these artists regularly? It was not the most lucrative business idea in the 1970s, by a long shot. Granz could have done it better, but he did it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjzee Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 Richard Davis said something to our jazz history class, "it's easy to sit on a couch, years later, and criticize someone who was out really doing something at a time when it wasn't easy to do it." He was talking about Louis Armstrong's live performances and the negative comments people made about them years later. I think this could apply to Pablo Records though. In the 1970s, who else was going to release albums by these artists regularly? It was not the most lucrative business idea in the 1970s, by a long shot. Granz could have done it better, but he did it. I think Granz said he lost money on most of the Pablos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted December 9, 2009 Report Share Posted December 9, 2009 Granz was a millionaire at that point and could have done better but he didn't need to and it really didn't seem to be in him. I have tons of respect and twinges of regret for his work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjzee Posted December 10, 2009 Report Share Posted December 10, 2009 That's a good way of putting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabshakeh Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 What is the Pablo logo meant to be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA Russell Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 2 hours ago, Rabshakeh said: What is the Pablo logo meant to be? It is a doodle of a cat by Pablo Picasso. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabshakeh Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 Oh. Thanks. Hence "Pablo". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Dryden Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 The fact that Norman Granz started the Pablo label and recorded so many valuable artists so frequently is enough for me. What I also appreciate is that he bought the masters to his Art Tatum Solo and Group Masterpiece series from Verve when he learned that they had let them lapse from print and duly reissued them. I do think that listening to the Tatum solo performances in their original order in the CD set makes more sense than to Granz' sequencing on the LPs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjzee Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 18 minutes ago, Ken Dryden said: The fact that Norman Granz started the Pablo label and recorded so many valuable artists so frequently is enough for me. What I also appreciate is that he bought the masters to his Art Tatum Solo and Group Masterpiece series from Verve when he learned that they had let them lapse from print and duly reissued them. I do think that listening to the Tatum solo performances in their original order in the CD set makes more sense than to Granz' sequencing on the LPs. Are the currently available editions rechanneled for stereo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Dryden Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 The Art Tatum sessions that Norman Granz produced have always been in mono. I’ve never been a fan of pseudo stereo reissues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted March 29, 2022 Report Share Posted March 29, 2022 Essay question asked honestly:Â How could Granz have done it better with Pablo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 29, 2022 Report Share Posted March 29, 2022 10 minutes ago, felser said: How could Granz have done it better with Pablo? Maybe a little more quantity control, whichever. Nothing sucks, but a fair amount of it, is more or less redundant...at least when all is said and done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjzee Posted March 29, 2022 Report Share Posted March 29, 2022 1 hour ago, Ken Dryden said: The Art Tatum sessions that Norman Granz produced have always been in mono. I’ve never been a fan of pseudo stereo reissues.  47 minutes ago, felser said: Essay question asked honestly: How could Granz have done it better with Pablo? Follow the Blue Note formula: pay for rehearsal time, encourage more original compositions, stop the frequent use of tired compositions (Sweet Georgia Brown, etc.).  Design better covers too, to highlight the uniqueness of each release, instead of signaling "more of the same being released here."  I think Granz designed most of their covers, and it shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Posted March 29, 2022 Report Share Posted March 29, 2022 6 minutes ago, mjzee said: Design better covers too, to highlight the uniqueness of each release, instead of signaling "more of the same being released here." Â I think Granz designed most of their covers, and it shows. Seems Fantasy did a better job, at least on the OJC reissues (albeit mostly CDs). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Dryden Posted March 29, 2022 Report Share Posted March 29, 2022 The graphic design was pretty generic for the Montreux ‘77 LP series, the photos used for the CD reissues was a great improvement. I doubt that rehearsal was needed given the veterans who took part in many Pablo releases, while more originals wouldn’t necessarily make a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted March 29, 2022 Report Share Posted March 29, 2022 I might have posted this earlier (not wanting to search 6 pages of posts) but I remember my old friend Bob Porter saying about Granz "there isn't a record man alive who doesn't believe they could make better records with the same people". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabshakeh Posted March 29, 2022 Report Share Posted March 29, 2022 I like the Pablo covers. They're instantly identifiable and don't have too much polish. The camera is always just that.little bit too close, which gives a sense of intimacy. 3 hours ago, mjzee said: Follow the Blue Note formula: pay for rehearsal time, encourage more original compositions, stop the frequent use of tired compositions (Sweet Georgia Brown, etc.). I am not particularly knowledge about Pablo's artists, certainly not when compared to other board members, but were they generally accomplished composers or songwriters? I always (probably wrongly) had the sense that the musicians who played the sort of swing music that ended up on Pablo tended not to write their own songs, even in an environment that was perhaps more favourable to it. What I mean is, was Pablo's approach to using overused standards of this sort a reflection of the artists' own standard practice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Friedman Posted March 29, 2022 Report Share Posted March 29, 2022 In my view, Norman Granz gets a bad rap from those who tell us they could have done a better job in producing jazz recordings. Where were they then? When I look at my very large collection of Clef, Norgran, Verve, and Pablo recordings I see an  extremely large number of outstanding records that I would not want to be without. The fact that Granz offered opportunities for many musicians who were being overlooked in favor of the latest jazz styles is by itself worthy of major credit. When I consider the lengthy list of wonderful jazz musicians  he recorded,(and the financial benefit that provided for them), it is quite amazing. I won't list the musicians here as it would likely be so long as to become close to a history of jazz. If I was consider the jazz record producers who have been most important over the past roughly 80 years, Norman Granz would certainly be among the top 3 or 4. The readily identifiable Pablo album covers are fine with me. Maybe not the most artistic, but easy to pick out in the record bins as a Pablo recording and therefore one I was likely to want to buy.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HutchFan Posted March 29, 2022 Report Share Posted March 29, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, Rabshakeh said: What I mean is, was Pablo's approach to using overused standards of this sort a reflection of the artists' own standard practice? Probably not. One thing that I think Pablo could have EASILY done much better is the naming of albums. The titles are SO generic. For example, take Basie's output: Count Basie - Jam Session at The Montreux Jazz Festival 1975 Count Basie - Basie Jam Count Basie - Count Basie Jam: Montreux '77 Count Basie - Basie Jam #2 Count Basie - Basie Jam #3 or Count Basie, Joe Turner, Eddie "Cleanhead" Vinson - Kansas City Shout Count Basie - Kansas City 5 Count Basie 6 - Kansas City Count Basie / Kansas City 3 - For The Second Time Count Basie - Kansas City 7 That's too many records with the words "Jam" or "Kansas City" in the title. It's confusing as hell -- and it's BORING. Granz should've shown the music enough respect to give each album a title. It's not like coming up with a name added to the production costs. It's just lazy.  Edited March 29, 2022 by HutchFan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 29, 2022 Report Share Posted March 29, 2022 Why should I have to put up with Joe Pass & Louis Bellson just to get to Lockjaw? In the end, it's not really worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HutchFan Posted March 29, 2022 Report Share Posted March 29, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, JSngry said: Why should I have to put up with Joe Pass & Louis Bellson just to get to Lockjaw? In the end, it's not really worth it. Just curious: What bugs you about Bellson? His playing's too busy?  No need to explain the aversion to Pass. Seems like he's the Oscar Peterson of guitar: listeners either love him or loathe him.  Edited March 29, 2022 by HutchFan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted March 29, 2022 Report Share Posted March 29, 2022 Too busy? Just the opposite. On those Basie Jam records he's on, he's metronomic, and not in the good way. Beaucoup respect for the guy, and on occasion, actual enjoyment. But a "pocket" drummer, he's usually not. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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