Barry Bonds quest for HR record

[Tim McG]

Why, if strength is not remotely related to home runs, did Bonds undertake such strenuous "efforts" to become bigger and stronger??

Never said that.

What I did say was steroids only create muscle mass and do not make you a HR hitter. They do not give you vision, skill or talent.

As to the effort Bonds took in gaining muscle mass....I believe it's called weight lifting and nutrition suppliments [Joe Weder would be one such product]. You can quote me if you'd like.

As Noj so correctly pointed out, Bonds is still hitting HRs. Additionally, he has been tested three times and has come up clean all three times. That kinda blows the whole steroid theory right there, my myopic friend.

Why did Bonds change from a decent power hitter to an extraordinary power hitter at such a late stage in his athletic career, and why do you think it is merely coincidence that his home runs jumped after he packed on 30 or 40 pounds of muscle?

Decent?

Better go back and check his stats, Dan. He was a seven time MVP before the alleged doping took place. I dunno, Dan....what do you call a baseball player who hits between 25 and 45+ HRs every single year? Wait, sorry...we already know that one, huh: A cheater. My bad.

I think Bonds had a great, no, extraordinary year. Believe it or not, hard work does pay off, Dan.

I now return you to our regularly scheduled obscenity laced tirade.

Edited May 12, 2007 by GoodSpeak

[Tim McG]

BTW...here's a link, Dan.

ESPN.com

And, if you will note, Bonds hit over 40 HRs three years in a row after the record breaking season and four times before that year.

All on juice?

Right.

[sheldonm]

...it's starting to feel as though there may be no resolution to this conflict~

[Dan Gould]

Why, if strength is not remotely related to home runs, did Bonds undertake such strenuous "efforts" to become bigger and stronger??

Never said that.

What I did say was steroids only create muscle mass and do not make you a HR hitter. They do not give you vision, skill or talent.

Now you are simply a liar. Do I really have to go back and show the countless times you said "strength doesn't make you a home run hitter"? Everyone on this board knows what you said and everyone who bothers to comment tells you that you make no sense.

Why did Bonds change from a decent power hitter to an extraordinary power hitter at such a late stage in his athletic career, and why do you think it is merely coincidence that his home runs jumped after he packed on 30 or 40 pounds of muscle?

Decent?

Better go back and check his stats, Dan. He was a seven time MVP before the alleged doping took place. I dunno, Dan....what do you call a baseball player who hits between 25 and 45+ HRs every single year? Wait, sorry...we already know that one, huh: A cheater. My bad.

Do you REALLY want me to consult the statistics? I would be more than happy to.

According to Game of Shadows, Bonds started to juice following the 1998 season. A logical place, therefore, to consult before and after statistics.

From the beginning of his career through the 1998 season, Barry Bonds hit 411 home runs in 6621 ABs, a rate of 1 per 16.5 ABs. That is a decent home run rate.

From the 1999 season to date, Barry Bonds hit 334 home runs in only 2971 ABs, a rate of 1 per 8.9 ABs.

Furthermore, this occured at a time when every athlete experiences a decline in his skills (age 34 and beyond). Bond was 34 when he hooked up with Anderson and BALCO, let's take a look at another statistic: OPS+. OPS as most people know is On Base Plus Slugging. The "+" signifies that park and league effects have been neutralized. A score of 100 is equivalent to the average ballplayer for a particular season or seasons. Below 100 is worse, above 100 is better.

At the age of 34, Bonds' OPS+ was 163. A very impressive number, it puts him in range of Willie Mays (also 163), Jimmy Foxx (164), Stan Musial (170), Frank Robinson and Hank Aaron (157), Mel Ott (156). Not quite in the range of Mickey Mantle (175), Lou Gehrig (184), Ted Williams (192) or Babe Ruth (212) but nevertheless, historically impressive, first ballot Hall of Fame type numbers. And much better than Rafael Palmiero (134).

Where did Bonds' OPS+ go after the age of 34, and how did these other legends do?

Ruth: a -8% change

Williams: a -1% change

Gehrig: -18%

Mantle: -13%

Musial: -19%

Foxx: -41%

Mays: -10%

Robinson: -8%

Aaron: -4%

Ott: -8%

Bonds: +43%

Palmiero: No change

Now, its not coincidental that these players were compared with Bonds, because at the age of 34, these were the top comparable players for Bonds' statistics to date. So let's summarize: Every single player in Bonds' group of comparables showed a decline in OPS+ after the age of 34. Some declines were drastic, some less so.

And yet, only a known steroid user showed zero decline and he who has "the gift" showed not only NO DECLINE, but a staggering increase.

The statistics do not lie.

Bonds was a decent home run hitter (1 in 16.5 ABs).

He hooked up with Greg Anderson and BALCO and injested a staggering amount of PEDs of all types.

He became an extraordinary home run hitter (1 in 8.9 ABs) at an age where every other historically great hitter began their inevitable athletic decline.

Oh, but Barry has "the gift".

[Tim McG]

Strength doesn't make you a HR hitter, Dan.

I have said that time and again...how does this make me a liar and how is it incongruent with my position on steroids not making you a HR hitter?

Dan, it is because Bonds is that good, OK? Stop comparing him to "every athlete"...he is a one of a kind. Why is this so hard to understand?

Geez...what do you want a recorded history of all extrordinary performances by any human, alive or dead?

Edited May 12, 2007 by GoodSpeak

[Dan Gould]

Strength doesn't make you a HR hitter, Dan.

I have said that time and again...how does this make me a liar and how is it incongruent with my position on steroids not making you a HR hitter?

Dan, it is because Bonds is that good, OK? Stop comparing him to "every athlete"...he is a one of a kind. Why is this so hard to understand?

Geez...what do you want a recorded history of all extrordinary performances by any human, alive or dead?

That's nice. Challenge me about the statistical evidence of his juicing, I show it to you. You don't respond and move onto sophistry like "he's that good".

Then tell me why he wasn't "that good" BEFORE 1998, in what is supposed to be his athletic prime? Tell me how he more than DOUBLED his home run rate AFTER starting to use steroids.

[Dan Gould]

I love how you claim that there is no "proof" and that it all comes from "pissed off ex-girlfriends". Let's take a look at the authors of Game of Shadows and their documentary proof:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/maga...growth.doc0313/

This narrative is based on more than a thousand pages of documents and interviews with more than 200 people, many of whom we spoke to repeatedly. In our reporting on the BALCO story for the San Francisco Chronicle, we obtained transcripts of the secret grand jury testimony of Barry Bonds and seven other prominent professional athletes. We also reviewed confidential memorandums detailing federal agents' interviews with other athletes and trainers who had direct knowledge of BALCO. Sealed material we reviewed also included unredacted versions of affidavits filed by the BALCO investigators; e-mail between BALCO owner Victor Conte and several athletes and coaches regarding the use and distribution of drugs; a list of evidence seized from the BALCO storage locker; and a document prepared to brief participants in the raid on BALCO.

Memos detailing the statements of Conte, BALCO vice president James Valente and Bonds's trainer, Greg Anderson, to IRS special agent Jeff Novitzky were sealed when we first reviewed them, but they have since become part of the public file in the BALCO case. The BALCO search warrant affidavits and other court records provided significant information. We also obtained a recording made without Anderson's knowledge in 2003 by a person familiar with Bonds's trainer; in it, Anderson acknowledged that Bonds was using an undetectable performance-enhancing drug to beat baseball's drug tests. Kimberly Bell, Bonds's former girlfriend, provided legal correspondence, transcripts, audiotapes of voice mail and many documents regarding her relationship with Bonds.

We conducted our interviews about BALCO from September 2003 until the autumn of '05. The names of many of our sources appear in the text or in the extensive chapter notes included in Game of Shadows. Some sources requested anonymity to avoid interfering with the federal BALCO investigation and a related grand jury probe that continued into '05. Some additional information about sources who requested anonymity appears in the chapter notes.

When they raided BALCO in September 2003, federal investigators began to accumulate evidence that Bonds was a steroid user. By the summer of '05, investigators had convincing proof that he had been using performance-enhancing drugs for years and that drugs had been provided to him by Anderson, who obtained them from BALCO and other sources. The evidence also showed that Bonds had not been truthful when he told the BALCO grand jury under oath that he hadn't knowingly used steroids.

After his grand jury appearance, Bonds continued to insist publicly that he had never used banned drugs, and the San Francisco Giants, who were paying him $90 million over five years, made no move to investigate his conduct or restrict his contact with suspected steroid dealers, arguing that there was no proof of wrongdoing.

Nevertheless, proof of Bonds's drug use exists, most of it in the possession of federal agents, much of it in the public domain. The evidence includes the statements of confessed steroid dealers, the account of a Bonds confidant as well as considerable documentary and circumstantial evidence. It also includes the account of a source familiar with Bonds who has specific knowledge of his use of banned drugs. That evidence forms the foundation of this narrative. Here is the evidence in review.

• Statements to Federal Agents

1. When he was questioned during the raid, BALCO's James Valente told Novitzky that Bonds had received the undetectable steroids the Cream and the Clear from BALCO. Valente said Anderson had brought Bonds to BALCO before the 2003 season, seeking steroids that would not show up on drug tests. Valente said he provided Anderson with drugs to give to Bonds. Valente pleaded guilty to a steroid conspiracy charge in 2005.

2. In his own statement during the raid, Conte gave an identical account of Anderson's bringing Bonds to BALCO and Bonds's subsequent use of the Cream and the Clear. Conte said Bonds used the drugs on a regular basis. Conte later claimed Novitzky's report contained words he never said. But it is significant that in 2005, Conte backed out of an evidentiary hearing in which he could have confronted Novitzky about the supposedly incorrect statements and sought to have them thrown out of court. Instead, Conte pleaded guilty to a steroid conspiracy charge.

3. When Anderson was questioned by agents on the day of the raid, he admitted giving banned drugs to many of his "baseball clients" but denied giving drugs to Bonds. In a search of Anderson's residence, agents found calendars referring to Bonds that plotted his use of steroids. When the agents sought to question Anderson about the calendars, the trainer said he didn't think he should talk anymore because he didn't want to go to jail. He pleaded guilty to steroid conspiracy and acknowledged in court that he dealt drugs to baseball players.

4. In the summer of 2004 the former Olympic shot putter C. J. Hunter told agent Novitzky that Conte had confided to him that Bonds was using the Clear. Hunter said their conversation had taken place in '03. Hunter's lawyer later said the federal agent's report was incorrect and that Conte had not implicated Bonds to Hunter.

• U.S. Grand Jury Testimony

1. In 2005 Kimberly Bell told the BALCO grand jury that in '00 Bonds had confided in her that he was using steroids, saying they helped him recover from injuries but also blaming them for the elbow injury that sidelined him in 1999.

2. In 2003 sprinter Tim Montgomery told the grand jury that when he visited BALCO in '00 or '01, he saw vials of the steroid Winstrol in BALCO's weight room. Montgomery testified that Conte said he was giving Winstrol to Bonds.

3. In 2003 five baseball players told the grand jury that they'd gotten steroids, growth hormone and other drugs from Anderson, whom they had met in his role as Bonds's trainer. The obvious import of their testimony was that they were receiving the same drugs that Anderson was giving Bonds, but the players claimed no direct knowledge of Bonds's steroid use.

• Documents

At Anderson's apartment, investigators found steroids, growth hormone and $60,000 in cash, along with a folder that contained doping calendars and other documents detailing Bonds's use of steroids. Prosecutors questioned Bonds about the documents during his appearance before the grand jury. Some document entries reflect payments for drugs for Bonds: $1,500 for two boxes of growth hormone; $450 for a bottle of Depotestosterone; $100 for 100 Clomiphene pills; $200 for the Cream and the Clear. Other entries reflect Bonds's drug cycle: For February 2002, a calendar showed alternating days of the Cream, the Clear and growth hormone followed by "Clow," or Clomid.

A document labeled "BLB 2003" listed cities where the Giants played away games in 2003, with notations for the use of growth hormone, the Clear, the Cream and insulin on specific days. Other documents associated with Bonds referred to the use of trenbolone and "beans," the Mexican steroid. At Anderson's apartment, and in a search of BALCO's trash, the agents also found evidence of Bonds's blood being sent to drug labs for steroid testing.

• Circumstantial Evidence

To some experts, the changes in Bonds's body in recent years constitute persuasive evidence of steroid use. No one at his age could put on so much muscle without using steroids, these observers reason.

According to team media guides, which are often imprecise, Bonds has grown one inch in height and gained 43 pounds since his rookie year of 1986. In 2004, the Giants reported his weight as 228, but sources familiar with Bonds say he was heavier. Bonds himself has claimed all the weight gain is muscle, not fat. In '97, when the Giants reported that he weighed 206, Bonds told USA Today that his body fat was an extraordinarily low 8%. In '02, when Bonds's weight was listed at 228, Greg Anderson told The New York Times Magazine that Bonds's body fat was even lower: 6.2%.

The belief that the changes in Bonds's body reflect steroid use is supported by the research of Harvard psychiatrist Harrison Pope, an expert on the mental-health effects of steroid abuse. In 1995, in The Clinical Journal of Sports Medicine, Pope and three colleagues published a mathematical formula for use in determining whether a person is using steroids. The "Fat-Free Mass Index," as the formula is called, predicts steroid use from a series of computations involving the subject's "lean muscle mass," which is determined from height, weight and percentage of body fat. The higher the index number, the leaner and more muscular the individual is. The average 30-year-old American male scores 20, Pope says, while the former Mr. America Steve Reeves, the most famous muscle man of the presteroid era, scored 25 in his prime. A score of more than 25 indicates steroid use.

In 1997, when Bonds reportedly weighed 206 and had 8% body fat, he scored 24.8 on the index. In 2002, when Bonds reportedly weighed 228 and had body fat of 6.2% his score was 28 -- well over the level of a "presumptive diagnosis" of steroid use.

There you go, Sparky. Try to pick it apart. Try to deny what anyone with a brain understands.

[Tim McG]

Only half a brain? A mental midget can read this and see nothing but hearsay testimony and a document alleging something that was never witnessed.

Not an ounce of substantial fact or evidence in that piece, Dan. None.

Quit fooling yourself.

Besides, if is true, steroids still do not make anyone a HR hitter, Dan.

Edited May 12, 2007 by GoodSpeak

[Dan Gould]

Strength doesn't make you a HR hitter, Dan.

I have said that time and again...how does this make me a liar and how is it incongruent with my position on steroids not making you a HR hitter?

Strength makes you a better home run hitter.

Now, answer the other questions. Deal with the astonishing change in his home run rate following his initial use of steroids. Explain why declining performance applies to every other athlete except those with "the gift".

Deal with the mountain of evidence described by the authors. Deal with the fact that Kimberly Bell didn't just say a bunch of stuff, she gave over voluminous written and oral documentation. Deal with the fact that a Bonds doping schedule for 2003 (labelled BLB - isn't Barry's middle name "Lamar"?) listed the exact same cities in the exact same order and date as the Giants' road schedule and listed each and every steroid Bond used. Explain that one.

Explain the multiple individuals who testified that they were told that Bonds was using steroids. Explain why Bonds blood was found to be sent to labs for testing of steroid use and testosterone levels. Was flaxseed oil supposed to elevate his testosterone and they wanted to make sure it didn't go too high?

Explain the documentary evidence of Bonds purchases of steroids.

Go ahead, explain it.

But don't say anything about hard work paying off, that he has a "gift" or that its all a bunch of nonsense from jilted lovers.

[Dan Gould]

Only half a brain? A mental midget can read this and see nothing but hearsay testimony and a document alleging something that was never witnessed.

Not an ounce of substantial fact or evidence in that piece, Dan. None.

Quit fooling yourself.

Besides, if is true, steroids still do not make anyone a HR hitter, Dan.

You're an absolute fucking fool, and now we are done. Cheer him to your heart's content.

Cheer him all the way to Federal Prison.

But trust me on this:

You will be embarassed over this, and sooner than you think.

[Tim McG]

Prove it.

[Tim McG]

You know...I bought a gun once. Never used it.

Does this make me an expert marksman?

[Larry Kart]

Why, if strength is not remotely related to home runs, did Bonds undertake such strenuous "efforts" to become bigger and stronger??

Never said that.

What I did say was steroids only create muscle mass and do not make you a HR hitter. They do not give you vision, skill or talent.

The strength you gain via steriods plus the right kind of exercise gives you the ability to RESPOND more effectively (more quickly in terms of response time and more powerfully in terms of bat speed) to the information your vision provides -- given the skills and talents that you already possess. Few skills, little talent, add steriods and the right kind of exercise, and you've got crap. Start with imposing skills and talent, add steriods and the right kind of exercise, and you've got Bonds or Soso or Clemens or any number of others. There are a host of mediocre ballplayers who've taken steriods and don't have a lot to show for it, for the reason mentioned above. Also, one would suspect that an athlete in the Bonds-Sosa-Clemens class, once he's processed the knowledge that his reshaped body can respond so much better -- more rapidly and powerfully -- than it did before, would find that his mental awareness of that reshaped body's capabilites has increased considerably as well, e.g. his ability to wait later on pitches that his pre-steriod self would have had to respond to earlier and probably less accurately.

[Tim McG]

Why, if strength is not remotely related to home runs, did Bonds undertake such strenuous "efforts" to become bigger and stronger??

Never said that.

What I did say was steroids only create muscle mass and do not make you a HR hitter. They do not give you vision, skill or talent.

The strength you gain via steriods plus the right kind of exercise gives you the ability to RESPOND more effectively (more quickly in terms of response time and more powerfully in terms of bat speed) to the information your vision provides -- given the skills and talents that you already possess. Few skills, little talent, add steriods and the right kind of exercise, and you've got crap. Start with imposing skills and talent, add steriods and the right kind of exercise, and you've got Bonds or Soso or Clemens or any number of others. There are a host of mediocre ballplayers who've taken steriods and don't have a lot to show for it, for the reason mentioned above. Also, one would suspect that an athlete in the Bonds-Sosa-Clemens class, once he's processed the knowledge that his reshaped body can respond so much better -- more rapidly and powerfully -- than it did before, would find that his mental awareness of that reshaped body's capabilites has increased considerably as well, e.g. his ability to wait later on pitches that his pre-steriod self would have had to respond to earlier and probably less accurately.

I agree...the potential is there. No question.

All's I'm saying is to blithly cast aside a Barry Bonds as little more than an astrisk is just plain foolish and shows very little understanding of greatness. All the "evidence" shows is there might be a possibility he juiced and that's it.

Again, I will be the first to admit I was wrong if it is ever proved Bonds did steroids. I have said this innumerable times. But it's going to take a lot more than an ex-girlfriend and a media guide.

Call me spoiled.

[Aggie87]

[rachel]

Again, I will be the first to admit I was wrong if it is ever proved Bonds did steroids. I have said this innumerable times. But it's going to take a lot more than an ex-girlfriend and a media guide.

What about your eyes and his big fat effin' head?

Just seems like a "Mr. Obvious" moment.

[Brownian Motion]

Thread summary after 120 posts:

Goodspeak: Okay Dan, I'm gonna push your button!

Dan Gould: Okay, but if you do, I warn you that I will not ignore you!

Goodspeak: I was hoping you'd say that! Ready?

Dan Gould: Push!

[donald byrd 4 EVA]

Thread summary after 120 posts:

Goodspeak: Okay Dan, I'm gonna push your button!

Dan Gould: Okay, but if you do, I warn you that I will not ignore you!

Goodspeak: I was hoping you'd say that! Ready?

Dan Gould: Push!

seriously. what a totally insane and repetitious exchange.

[Guy Berger]

Thread summary after 120 posts:

Goodspeak: Okay Dan, I'm gonna push your button!

Dan Gould: Okay, but if you do, I warn you that I will not ignore you!

Goodspeak: I was hoping you'd say that! Ready?

Dan Gould: Push!

ROTFLMAO.

You forgot to put Dan's responses in all caps.

Guy

[sheldonm]

Thread summary after 120 posts:

Goodspeak: Okay Dan, I'm gonna push your button!

Dan Gould: Okay, but if you do, I warn you that I will not ignore you!

Goodspeak: I was hoping you'd say that! Ready?

Dan Gould: Push!

[Tim McG]

Yeah, yeah.

sheesh

[Tim McG]

Again, I will be the first to admit I was wrong if it is ever proved Bonds did steroids. I have said this innumerable times. But it's going to take a lot more than an ex-girlfriend and a media guide.

What about your eyes and his big fat effin' head?

Just seems like a "Mr. Obvious" moment.

Hm.

Well, I have a neighbor looks like he's a potential thug.

Should I call the police now?

[rachel]

Again, I will be the first to admit I was wrong if it is ever proved Bonds did steroids. I have said this innumerable times. But it's going to take a lot more than an ex-girlfriend and a media guide.

What about your eyes and his big fat effin' head?

Just seems like a "Mr. Obvious" moment.

Hm.

Well, I have a neighbor looks like he's a potential thug.

Should I call the police now?

If you don't know about the relationship of steroid use to cranial size increase, then you don't have any business posting on this threa..

oh nevermind. Your post speaks for itself.

[Tim McG]

Again, I will be the first to admit I was wrong if it is ever proved Bonds did steroids. I have said this innumerable times. But it's going to take a lot more than an ex-girlfriend and a media guide.

What about your eyes and his big fat effin' head?

Just seems like a "Mr. Obvious" moment.

Hm.

Well, I have a neighbor looks like he's a potential thug.

Should I call the police now?

If you don't know about the relationship of steroid use to cranial size increase, then you don't have any business posting on this threa..

oh nevermind. Your post speaks for itself.

Does it.

Hm.

Seems you assailed me because of a lack of being able to see with my eyes.

I'm thinking you might want to do a study on the mechanics of hitting a baseball....or on assuming someone is guilty just because he looks like he could commit a crime

Just sayin'.

Edited May 13, 2007 by GoodSpeak

[Aggie87]

Does it strike you as funny that every other poster on this board disagrees with you?

It would be fascinating to me to see if you would defend Bonds as vigorously if he had played his whole career in Pittsburgh, or Tampa Bay or somewhere.

Somehow i doubt it. Seriously, seriously doubt it.