Barry Bonds quest for HR record

[Aggie87]

Home run record is just a statistic. Anyone in the top 30-40 list were GREAT ballplayers.

I agree Barry's a good ball player, but I also think the home run record is more than a statistic. It's a BIG deal. I think it carries more weight than just about any other sports record.

Can you tell me who the current world record holder in the 100m dash is?

Or who holds the record for most points in a career in basketball?

Or who's caught the most TD passes in the NFL in their career?

If anyone knows these off the top of their head, I'd be impressed. But I think just about everyone in the country knows Hank Aaron holds the U.S. record for home runs.

PS - The world record is held by Sadaharu Oh of the Yomiuri Giants - 868 homers.

[Guy Berger]

Or who holds the record for most points in a career in basketball?

Without checking -- it's either Kareem or Karl Malone. I'm embarrassed that I don't remember.

Guy

Edited May 11, 2007 by Guy

[Aggie87]

Or who holds the record for most points in a career in basketball?

Without checking -- it's either Kareem or Karl Malone. I'm embarrassed that I don't remember.

Guy

Wiseguy!

I hope my point was still taken though, that the general population wouldn't know that. If I had to guess, I would have said Wilt Chamberlain or Jordan.

[Brad]

I also don't know why Schilling apologiized. He spoke the truth.

Well, he really didn't, because Barry has never admitted that he knowingly used steroids, or cheated on his wife, or cheated on his taxes, or "cheated the sport".

I do wish that instead of the abject apology, Schilling had said something like "I misspoke about whether Barry has admitted any of his misdeeds. He has not, but the evidence of his steroid use is overwhelming and in fact he acknowledged that he used "the cream" and "the clear" from BALCO while denying that he knew they were steroids. Its up to others to decide whether his pursuit of Aaron's record is legitimate."

That's fair.

[Aggie87]

Also, he apologized for saying it, not thinking it. It's clear in how he worded the apology.

[connoisseur series500]

Home run record is just a statistic. Anyone in the top 30-40 list were GREAT ballplayers.

I agree Barry's a good ball player, but I also think the home run record is more than a statistic. It's a BIG deal. I think it carries more weight than just about any other sports record.

Can you tell me who the current world record holder in the 100m dash is?

Or who holds the record for most points in a career in basketball?

Or who's caught the most TD passes in the NFL in their career?

If anyone knows these off the top of their head, I'd be impressed. But I think just about everyone in the country knows Hank Aaron holds the U.S. record for home runs.

PS - The world record is held by Sadaharu Oh of the Yomiuri Giants - 868 homers.

True, Agg, but remember that baseball (of all the sports) is most statistics-oriented. Stats don't mean as much in other sports. Winning does.

[Jim R]

...who's caught the most TD passes in the NFL in their career?

Jerry Rice.

Touchdown Receptions, Career: 197 (2nd place: 130 by Chris Carter)

Jerry Rice - NFL Records

[Jazzmoose]

With all due respect here Guys....you are confusing brut force with timing and bodily motion required to generate speed.

Just taking a guess here, but I think it is a little easier to generate speed while swinging a long thin tubular piece of lightweight metal that flexes with your arms entended than a bat made of wood hanging over your shoulders.

I don't think you can compare the two games so directly.

Beyond that, there's also the fact of massive technological improvements in golf club construction, all designed to allow anyone, large or small, to 'grip it and rip it' 250-300 yards.

It is a completely false argument from someone who specializes in them.

Same can be said for the baseball equipment.

WHAT????

Nothing of any significance whatsoever has changed in the manufacture of wood bats.

There is no question whatsoever that golf clubs have changed dramatically in the past 10-15 years.

The baseball is juiced up, most players use batting gloves with some sort of sticky substance [no, not pine tar] witch aids in the swinging of the bat, the technology in footwear has advanced all of which aid the batter.

Are you serious, or is my sarcasm meter broken?

[Guy Berger]

The baseball is juiced up, most players use batting gloves with some sort of sticky substance [no, not pine tar] witch aids in the swinging of the bat, the technology in footwear has advanced all of which aid the batter.

Are you serious, or is my sarcasm meter broken?

Don't forget that changes in video camera technology are only making it "seem" like Barry Bonds is chunkier than he was 15 years ago.

Guy

[Dan Gould]

The one significant advance in the "technology" of hitting is in the widespread use of video technology, both for swing mechanics (fixing what's wrong when a batter slumps) as well as batter preparation (seeing, one after the other, pitch sequence of every previous at-bat against a pitcher).

[jazzypaul]

Thanks Dan. I haven't read up on this stuff.

The superhuman muscles weren't earned in the weight room. It's a shame. I remember McGwire's forearms were friggin' surreal, like calves. Remember how Brady Anderson got all huge and hit 50 homers? He must be the same story.

Well...you still gotta be in the weight room. The difference is, on the juice, you'll stay bigger longer. Which helps in baseball, because with such a busy schedule, who's going to be able to do two and three hour per day workouts during the season? And you'll get bigger faster, simply because you'll need less recovery time in between workouts. So, having between October and February to be able to work out every day is going to have its, uhhh, advantages.

Shit, if all you had to do to get lean muscle was take steroids, I'd be in Tiajuana every other weekend.

[Noj]

True, you've still got to pump iron--but the results won't be as dramatic nearly as quickly. That's what I meant by "earned."

[Tim McG]

The one significant advance in the "technology" of hitting is in the widespread use of video technology, both for swing mechanics (fixing what's wrong when a batter slumps) as well as batter preparation (seeing, one after the other, pitch sequence of every previous at-bat against a pitcher).

Again, steroids will not aid the batter here, either.

The "fix" comes from the seeing and the physics of motion....muscle mass does neither.

[Aggie87]

The one significant advance in the "technology" of hitting is in the widespread use of video technology, both for swing mechanics (fixing what's wrong when a batter slumps) as well as batter preparation (seeing, one after the other, pitch sequence of every previous at-bat against a pitcher).

Again, steroids will not aid the batter here, either.

The "fix" comes from the seeing and the physics of motion....muscle mass does neither.

He's talking about video technology, not steroids and their clear benefit to HR hitters.

[Tim McG]

A few questions...

Is Bonds still using steroids? He still hits home runs. It's my understanding that size and strength gained from steroids will be lost once the user stops using steroids. Isn't that true?

How can one be so sure that Bonds knew "the cream" and "the clear" were steroids? When I think steroids, I think needles. Maybe that's what Bonds thought. Upon what basis does he lose the benefit of the doubt? It's well established that he's a big jerk and unpopular with his teammates, but how do we know he's a liar?

Because he denied knowing that these were steroids, when it was Bonds who directed Jason Giambi to his personal trainer, Anderson, and it was Anderson who put Giambi on "the cream" and "the clear" and Giambi fully knew what he was taking. He testified that he knew they were steroids.

Is it plausible to believe that Greg Anderson told Giambi what he would be taking and not Bonds?

So if somebody denies using steriods that automatically means he is....?

Giambi isn't Bonds and he still uses HGHs...still no case.

[Tim McG]

The one significant advance in the "technology" of hitting is in the widespread use of video technology, both for swing mechanics (fixing what's wrong when a batter slumps) as well as batter preparation (seeing, one after the other, pitch sequence of every previous at-bat against a pitcher).

Again, steroids will not aid the batter here, either.

The "fix" comes from the seeing and the physics of motion....muscle mass does neither.

He's talking about video technology, not steroids and their clear benefit to HR hitters.

What part of the sentence I wrote in my previous post regarding vision and motion didn't you understand?

The thread is revolving around the use of steriods and its alleged benefits.

Not sure what your point here is.

[Aggie87]

What part of the sentence I wrote in my previous post regarding vision and motion didn't you understand?

The thread is revolving around the use of steriods and its alleged benefits.

Not sure what your point here is.

Dan's comments were about video technology, and your response was yet another defense of Bonds, and his supposed non-use of steroids.

Wasn't sure what your point was.

[Tim McG]

What part of the sentence I wrote in my previous post regarding vision and motion didn't you understand?

The thread is revolving around the use of steriods and its alleged benefits.

Not sure what your point here is.

Dan's comments were about video technology, and your response was yet another defense of Bonds, and his supposed non-use of steroids.

Wasn't sure what your point was.

Dan's point was about the advances in the baseball game relative to technology. Which is a spin off of a point I had made earlier rebutting his point about the techology advances in golf and how there aren't any to speak of in baseball.

My response was that this technology is all about fixing the problems batters face in hitting a baseball is relative to vision and motion. Which has been my point all along relative to steroids not making a batter hit HRs.

My secondary point was [since this thread revolves around the use of steroids] that muscle mass will not factor in with this technology.

I can't explain it any better than that, Aggie....ya gotta follow along here a bit, my friend.

Edited May 11, 2007 by GoodSpeak

[Dan Gould]

A few questions...

Is Bonds still using steroids? He still hits home runs. It's my understanding that size and strength gained from steroids will be lost once the user stops using steroids. Isn't that true?

How can one be so sure that Bonds knew "the cream" and "the clear" were steroids? When I think steroids, I think needles. Maybe that's what Bonds thought. Upon what basis does he lose the benefit of the doubt? It's well established that he's a big jerk and unpopular with his teammates, but how do we know he's a liar?

Because he denied knowing that these were steroids, when it was Bonds who directed Jason Giambi to his personal trainer, Anderson, and it was Anderson who put Giambi on "the cream" and "the clear" and Giambi fully knew what he was taking. He testified that he knew they were steroids.

Is it plausible to believe that Greg Anderson told Giambi what he would be taking and not Bonds?

So if somebody denies using steriods that automatically means he is....?

Giambi isn't Bonds and he still uses HGHs...still no case.

Try to "follow along":

Giambi and Bonds were BOTH clients of BALCO and Greg Anderson.

Giambi asked Anderson directly "you're Barry's personal trainer - what is his secret? How has he maintained his performance level and fitness level so deep into his 30s?"

Anderson replied "You're familiar with steroids? Well, BALCO has some unbelievable steroids, they're undetectable and they kick ass (if you don't mind shrunken testicles, back acne or a swollen head). I'll give you the same ones I'm giving Barry."

And Giambi said, "Cool!"

Like I've said before: When everyone associated with BALCO knowingly received and injested the company's steroids, it is no great leap of faith to say that Barry Bonds, who was associated with BALCO and received their products and used them, also knowingly used steroids.

[Dan Gould]

ya gotta follow along here a bit, my friend.

Following your twisted deceitful loop de loops of false assertions and misdirections is a surefire path toward insanity.

[Tim McG]

A few questions...

Is Bonds still using steroids? He still hits home runs. It's my understanding that size and strength gained from steroids will be lost once the user stops using steroids. Isn't that true?

How can one be so sure that Bonds knew "the cream" and "the clear" were steroids? When I think steroids, I think needles. Maybe that's what Bonds thought. Upon what basis does he lose the benefit of the doubt? It's well established that he's a big jerk and unpopular with his teammates, but how do we know he's a liar?

Because he denied knowing that these were steroids, when it was Bonds who directed Jason Giambi to his personal trainer, Anderson, and it was Anderson who put Giambi on "the cream" and "the clear" and Giambi fully knew what he was taking. He testified that he knew they were steroids.

Is it plausible to believe that Greg Anderson told Giambi what he would be taking and not Bonds?

So if somebody denies using steriods that automatically means he is....?

Giambi isn't Bonds and he still uses HGHs...still no case.

Try to "follow along":

Giambi and Bonds were BOTH clients of BALCO and Greg Anderson.

Giambi asked Anderson directly "you're Barry's personal trainer - what is his secret? How has he maintained his performance level and fitness level so deep into his 30s?"

Anderson replied "You're familiar with steroids? Well, BALCO has some unbelievable steroids, they're undetectable and they kick ass (if you don't mind shrunken testicles, back acne or a swollen head). I'll give you the same ones I'm giving Barry."

And Giambi said, "Cool!"

Like I've said before: When everyone associated with BALCO knowingly received and injested the company's steroids, it is no great leap of faith to say that Barry Bonds, who was associated with BALCO and received their products and used them, also knowingly used steroids.

Giambi doesn't speak for Barry Bonds....neither does Schilling the Liar.

Try to follow along, OK?

[Dan Gould]

What's sad and pathetic is that you can't recognize how ridiculous you sound.

The Giambi-Anderson conversation in Goodspeak:

Giambi: I want to be as strong and durable and successful as Barry when I am his age. Can you do the same thing for me?

Anderson: Well, Barry is just a weight lifting fiend with superhuman ability to recover. Plus, he has "the gift". I better just put you on a steroids regimen instead.

[Tim McG]

What's sad and pathetic is that you can't recognize how ridiculous you sound.

The Giambi-Anderson conversation in Goodspeak:

Giambi: I want to be as strong and durable and successful as Barry when I am his age. Can you do the same thing for me?

Anderson: Well, Barry is just a weight lifting fiend with superhuman ability to recover. Plus, he has "the gift". I better just put you on a steroids regimen instead.

Oh, well in that case, I hereby declare myself as your spokesperson.

Dan: Steroids make you hit homeruns and if you hit them you must be juicing. There is absolutely no other possible answer to anyone's success on the playing field.

Goody: Your proof?

Dan: I am the Great and Powerful Gould! I have spoken!

Goody: Dan, you are aware, of course, that steroids only create muscle mass...they aren't some sort of a magic potion that gives a player vision and skill.

Dan: You pathetic weasel! How dare you speak to me in that way...I am omnipotent! I and I alone possess all knowledge of how steroids work!

Goody: M'kay. Can you tell me why you don't believe relative motion and physics have everything to do with bat head speed?

Dan: You worthless pile of steaming excrement! I have spoken! Down and beg for mercy!

Goody: Well, all righty then! It would appear that narrowmindedness has reached an alltime high. Congratulations. I think we're done here.

Edited May 12, 2007 by GoodSpeak

[Jazzmoose]

Quick; somebody call 7/4...

[Dan Gould]

What's sad and pathetic is that you can't recognize how ridiculous you sound.

The Giambi-Anderson conversation in Goodspeak:

Giambi: I want to be as strong and durable and successful as Barry when I am his age. Can you do the same thing for me?

Anderson: Well, Barry is just a weight lifting fiend with superhuman ability to recover. Plus, he has "the gift". I better just put you on a steroids regimen instead.

Oh, well in that case, I hereby declare myself as your spokesperson.

Dan: Steriods make you hit homeruns and if you hit them you must be juicing. There is absolutely no other possible answer to anyone's success on the playing field.

I never said that hitting home runs means you must be juicing.

Paradoxically hitting home runs at a much greater rate in his athletic old age, combined with known usage of BALCO products, massive muscle gain in a short period of time which EXPERTS declare is a signal of steroid use, combined with DOCUMENTARY evidence of his usage makes it a pretty obvious bet that BONDS juiced.

Gooody: Your proof?

Dan: I am Great and Powerful Gould! I have spoken!

I am hardly alone in my pronouncements. Everyone else on this board agrees with me.

Goody: Dan, you are aware, of course, that steroids only create muscle mass...they aren't some sort of a magic potion that gives a player vision and skill.

Dan: You pathetic weasel! How dare you speak to me in that way...I am omnipotent! I and I alone possess all knowledge of how steriods work!

NO ONE HAS EVER MADE THE CLAIM THAT STEROIDS IMPROVES EXISTING HAND-EYE COORDINATION. IT IS A FALSE STATEMENT BY YOU WHICH IS ONLY ONE OF MANY THAT YOU USE TO OBSCURE THE FACTS. IT DOES NOT FOOL ANYONE. TRY TO GET IT INTO YOUR SKULL:

MAJOR LEAGUE PLAYERS ALREADY HAVE THE HAND EYE COORDINATION NECESSARY TO HIT THE BALL.

PLAYERS SUCH AS BONDS, WHO SUDDENLY BLOSSOM INTO HOME RUN HITTING DYNAMOS AFTER ADDING FIFTY POUNDS OF MUSCLE ARE OBVIOUS TARGETS FOR STEROID SUSPICION, BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE CAME OUT ABOUT BALCO, ANDERSON, ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC.

Goody: M'kay. Can you tell me why you don't believe relative motion and physics have everything to do with bat head speed?

Dan: You worthless pile of steaming excrement! I have spoken! Down and beg for mercy!

In amongst the insults have been multiple logical and compelling arguments for why you are wrong and the entire rest of the community is right. You continue to ignore the critical questions I keep asking. Why? Why can't you answer them? One more time:

Why, if strength is not remotely related to home runs, did Bonds undertake such strenuous "efforts" to become bigger and stronger??

Why did Bonds change from a decent power hitter to an extraordinary power hitter at such a late stage in his athletic career, and why do you think it is merely coincidence that his home runs jumped after he packed on 30 or 40 pounds of muscle?

In the immortal words of John McEnroe, ANSWER THE QUESTION!

Goody: Well, all righty then! It would appear that narrowmindedness has reached an alltime high. Congratulations. I think we're done here.

Yeah, I'm narrow minded.

And you're a goddamn saint to keep defending Bonds with twisted and deceitful logic and utterly false assertions. Are you on Barry's payroll? I know of no one who would continue to defend him from the blizzard of proof of what he is: a liar, a cheater, a felon.

Edited May 12, 2007 by Dan Gould