Barry Bonds quest for HR record

[Soulstation1]

schilling and bond were on speaking terms while schilling was in the NL

schilling and bonds had a conversation up in phoenix after barry came back from bobby bonds' death

i was at the game

Edited May 9, 2007 by Soulstation1

[J Larsen]

I remember Schilling saying some pretty nasty stuff before that.

I happened to be at the first home game after Bobby Bonds' death.

[Dan Gould]

Its obviously just a matter of time before Schilling posts some sort of clarification on his blog acknowledging that Bonds has never owned up to anything in his entire life.

[Tim McG]

With all due respect here Guys....you are confusing brut force with timing and bodily motion required to generate speed.

Just taking a guess here, but I think it is a little easier to generate speed while swinging a long thin tubular piece of lightweight metal that flexes with your arms entended than a bat made of wood hanging over your shoulders.

I don't think you can compare the two games so directly.

Beyond that, there's also the fact of massive technological improvements in golf club construction, all designed to allow anyone, large or small, to 'grip it and rip it' 250-300 yards.

It is a completely false argument from someone who specializes in them.

Same can be said for the baseball equipment.

WHAT????

Nothing of any significance whatsoever has changed in the manufacture of wood bats.

There is no question whatsoever that golf clubs have changed dramatically in the past 10-15 years.

The baseball is juiced up, most players use batting gloves with some sort of sticky substance [no, not pine tar] witch aids in the swinging of the bat, the technology in footwear has advanced all of which aid the batter.

[Tim McG]

I shouldn't even have to say this, but golf is a completely different game than baseball. Hitting a golfball is simply not equivalent to hitting a baseball, no matter how much you like to believe it is, goodspeak.

There is substantial mass and density in the head of a golf club, and merely swinging it is going to create force against a non-moving ball. Hitting a golf ball is more equivalent to playing t-ball than playing baseball. My son is playing t-ball this year again (the kids range from 4-6 years old), and every kid on our team has hit the ball successfully. The kids who are older, larger, and clearly stronger hit the ball further, consistently.

In baseball, the ball is flying towards the batter at 80-100 mph. A weak hitter isn't going to hit that out of the infield, assuming he/she has the vision and eye-hand coordination required to make contact in the first place. A strong hitter with good vision and coordination is going to smack the ball, and a strong hitter with great muscle mass is going to hit the ball with even greater force. The power with which the bat hits the ball is directly related to the speed AND force the batter commands.

The swing is essentially the same, Aggie.

A "weak" hitter is that way because he can't see the ball, can't hit a curve, is in a slump, etc. Anybody in the MLB who can swing a bat well, merely needs to connect with a 90 mph fastball and it will go.

How then do we explain the obvious difference in build, one batter to another, large or small build, to the various batting averages throughout the league? Some can hit some can't and I absolutely guarantee you muscle mass has very little to do with it.

Edited May 9, 2007 by GoodSpeak

[Dan Gould]

I shouldn't even have to say this, but golf is a completely different game than baseball. Hitting a golfball is simply not equivalent to hitting a baseball, no matter how much you like to believe it is, goodspeak.

There is substantial mass and density in the head of a golf club, and merely swinging it is going to create force against a non-moving ball. Hitting a golf ball is more equivalent to playing t-ball than playing baseball. My son is playing t-ball this year again (the kids range from 4-6 years old), and every kid on our team has hit the ball successfully. The kids who are older, larger, and clearly stronger hit the ball further, consistently.

In baseball, the ball is flying towards the batter at 80-100 mph. A weak hitter isn't going to hit that out of the infield, assuming he/she has the vision and eye-hand coordination required to make contact in the first place. A strong hitter with good vision and coordination is going to smack the ball, and a strong hitter with great muscle mass is going to hit the ball with even greater force. The power with which the bat hits the ball is directly related to the speed AND force the batter commands.

The swing is essentially the same, Aggie.

A "weak" hitter is that way because he can't see the ball, can't hit a curve, is in a slump, etc. Anybody in the MLB who can swing a bat well, merely needs to connect with a 90 mph fastball and it will go.

How then do we explain the obvious difference in build, one batter to another, large or small build, to the various batting averages throughout the league? Some can hit some can't and I absolutely gaurantee you muscle mass has very little to do with it.

Oh you are an absolute joke. Why don't you listen to Jerry Remy, who knows a little something about baseball:

NESN’s Jerry Remy, in his weekly appearance on sports radio WEEI’s Dennis and Callahan show this morning, was asked if most major league ballplayers sided with David Ortiz, who was supportive of Bonds in recent comments, or Curt Schilling, who was highly critical of Bonds yesterday.

“I would have to say probably Schilling’s,” said Remy. “I agree with what Ortiz says, you can take all the stuff you want in the world and it’s not going to help you hit the baseball, but when you do hit it, it’s going to help you hit it farther.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/reds...as/extra_bases/

Edited May 9, 2007 by Dan Gould

[Tim McG]

Case in point: Jose Canseco., aka, Jose CanStrikeOut. The guy is as big as a house and couldn't hit his hat size let alone jack the ball out of the park 755 times.

No, but he averaged 40 per 162 games. 20th lifetime in HR per AB. His 462 is 30th on the total HR list. Hardly an example that helps your case.

Sure it is.

Look at his number of strike-outs. Additionally, that's lifetime. In the last few years of his [short] career he, well....sucked, basically. If steroids do so much for you how do we explain this?

Besides, if the argument is muscle mass creates bat head speed which makes you hit huge amounts of HRs, this is a perfect example of how it doesn't.

[Man with the Golden Arm]

when did schilling become the voice of MLB??

STFU and just pitch every 5 days

didn't we all stop listening to Schilling when he told us all to go and vote for Bush after The Series.

[Tim McG]

Case in point: Jose Canseco., aka, Jose CanStrikeOut. The guy is as big as a house and couldn't hit his hat size let alone jack the ball out of the park 755 times.

No, but he averaged 40 per 162 games. 20th lifetime in HR per AB. His 462 is 30th on the total HR list. Hardly an example that helps your case.

Not only is it a poor example for his "case" (which is nonexistent) but Canseco is the poster boy for how, in a no testing system, steroids can keep you in the league for 17 seasons. With a .266 career batting average and a severe defensive liability, only Canseco's steroid-fueled ability to hit taters made him a major leaguer.

Hey, if Dave Kingman could hang around as long as he did in the pre-steroid era, I don't see where this is much of an argument...

We are assummg Kingman didn't use the juice....

[Soulstation1]

0-2

up for roid talk

[Brad]

0-2

up for roid talk

from Baroid.

Seriously, I can't believe how much time has been wasted to justify or not justify this person. It doesn't take a genius to see he's not the same person he was with the Pirates. That head is so big, it's about to explode, and I'm not about his having a swelled head, even before he started using steroids.

I also don't know why Schilling apologiized. He spoke the truth.

Edited May 10, 2007 by Brad

[Dan Gould]

I also don't know why Schilling apologiized. He spoke the truth.

Well, he really didn't, because Barry has never admitted that he knowingly used steroids, or cheated on his wife, or cheated on his taxes, or "cheated the sport".

I do wish that instead of the abject apology, Schilling had said something like "I misspoke about whether Barry has admitted any of his misdeeds. He has not, but the evidence of his steroid use is overwhelming and in fact he acknowledged that he used "the cream" and "the clear" from BALCO while denying that he knew they were steroids. Its up to others to decide whether his pursuit of Aaron's record is legitimate."

Edited May 10, 2007 by Dan Gould

[Soulstation1]

Dan

Yes Or No

Bonds First Ballot HOFer??

[Dan Gould]

Dan

Yes Or No

Bonds First Ballot HOFer??

Yes, but 80% of the HoFers present on the dais should get up and walk out when he starts talking. A silent protest of the fact that he cheated to attain the greatest record of all time.

[Tim McG]

0-2

up for roid talk

from Baroid.

Seriously, I can't believe how much time has been wasted to justify or not justify this person. It doesn't take a genius to see he's not the same person he was with the Pirates. That head is so big, it's about to explode, and I'm not about his having a swelled head, even before he started using steroids.

I also don't know why Schilling apologiized. He spoke the truth.

Truth...?

This is the same Schilling with the paint on his sock, right?

Oh, I think he has a very good reason to apologize....a big red one.

Edited May 10, 2007 by GoodSpeak

[Tim McG]

Dan

Yes Or No

Bonds First Ballot HOFer??

Yes, but 80% of the HoFers present on the dais should get up and walk out when he starts talking. A silent protest of the fact that he cheated to attain the greatest record of all time.

I'll take that bet.

48% sez yer wrong, Dan.

[Tim McG]

I also don't know why Schilling apologiized. He spoke the truth.

Well, he really didn't, because Barry has never admitted that he knowingly used steroids, or cheated on his wife, or cheated on his taxes, or "cheated the sport".

I do wish that instead of the abject apology, Schilling had said something like "I misspoke about whether Barry has admitted any of his misdeeds. He has not, but the evidence of his steroid use is overwhelming and in fact he acknowledged that he used "the cream" and "the clear" from BALCO while denying that he knew they were steroids. Its up to others to decide whether his pursuit of Aaron's record is legitimate."

Not exactly.

He has already admitted to using the "clear" and during the time it was not outlawed by the MLB. Ruth, OTOH, openly drank an outlawed substance during Prohibition.

Which is worse?

Still no case.

[Noj]

A few questions...

Is Bonds still using steroids? He still hits home runs. It's my understanding that size and strength gained from steroids will be lost once the user stops using steroids. Isn't that true?

How can one be so sure that Bonds knew "the cream" and "the clear" were steroids? When I think steroids, I think needles. Maybe that's what Bonds thought. Upon what basis does he lose the benefit of the doubt? It's well established that he's a big jerk and unpopular with his teammates, but how do we know he's a liar?

[Dan Gould]

A few questions...

Is Bonds still using steroids? He still hits home runs. It's my understanding that size and strength gained from steroids will be lost once the user stops using steroids. Isn't that true?

How can one be so sure that Bonds knew "the cream" and "the clear" were steroids? When I think steroids, I think needles. Maybe that's what Bonds thought. Upon what basis does he lose the benefit of the doubt? It's well established that he's a big jerk and unpopular with his teammates, but how do we know he's a liar?

Because he denied knowing that these were steroids, when it was Bonds who directed Jason Giambi to his personal trainer, Anderson, and it was Anderson who put Giambi on "the cream" and "the clear" and Giambi fully knew what he was taking. He testified that he knew they were steroids.

Is it plausible to believe that Greg Anderson told Giambi what he would be taking and not Bonds?

[Dan Gould]

0-2

up for roid talk

from Baroid.

Seriously, I can't believe how much time has been wasted to justify or not justify this person. It doesn't take a genius to see he's not the same person he was with the Pirates. That head is so big, it's about to explode, and I'm not about his having a swelled head, even before he started using steroids.

I also don't know why Schilling apologiized. He spoke the truth.

Truth...?

This is the same Schilling with the paint on his sock, right?

Oh, I think he has a very good reason to apologize....a big red one.

Don't you EVER claim that Schilling put "paint" on his sock. There is no evidence whatsoever that he did so. Anyone watching the ALCS game recognized blood when they saw it; and the sock from the World Series which the Hall of Fame now has turned brown, exactly like blood does after a period of time.

The only reason Schilling had to apologize was that he mischaracterized Bonds' grand jury testimony. Everything else he said is true:

Bonds used steroids. Bonds cheated on his wife, cheated on his taxes, and cheated on the game.

Keep pretending otherwise. Soon enough, Bonds will pay the piper in front of a jury of his peers.

[Dan Gould]

I also don't know why Schilling apologiized. He spoke the truth.

Well, he really didn't, because Barry has never admitted that he knowingly used steroids, or cheated on his wife, or cheated on his taxes, or "cheated the sport".

I do wish that instead of the abject apology, Schilling had said something like "I misspoke about whether Barry has admitted any of his misdeeds. He has not, but the evidence of his steroid use is overwhelming and in fact he acknowledged that he used "the cream" and "the clear" from BALCO while denying that he knew they were steroids. Its up to others to decide whether his pursuit of Aaron's record is legitimate."

Not exactly.

He has already admitted to using the "clear" and during the time it was not outlawed by the MLB. Ruth, OTOH, openly drank an outlawed substance during Prohibition.

Which is worse?

Still no case.

You are a fucking fool.

Bonds never admitted to using "the clear" - he insisted it was flaxseed oil.

"The clear" was a designer steroid. In 1991, Fay Vincent issued a directive as a MLB Commissioner stating that steroid use was illegal in MLB. That directive was never overturned or changed. Regardless of whether or not there was a testing regime in place, the USE OF STEROIDS was banned by the Commissioner.

Your comparison of Ruth and Bonds is as laughable as everything else you have claimed.

[Dan Gould]

Dan

Yes Or No

Bonds First Ballot HOFer??

Yes, but 80% of the HoFers present on the dais should get up and walk out when he starts talking. A silent protest of the fact that he cheated to attain the greatest record of all time.

I'll take that bet.

48% sez yer wrong, Dan.

What the fuck does this refer to?

I said that 80% of the dais should walk out. I don't think there has been any poll of HoF members as to whether Bonds belongs. And if there was such a poll, and only 48% think he does, then he is in far worse shape than I imagined.

[Noj]

Thanks Dan. I haven't read up on this stuff.

The superhuman muscles weren't earned in the weight room. It's a shame. I remember McGwire's forearms were friggin' surreal, like calves. Remember how Brady Anderson got all huge and hit 50 homers? He must be the same story.

[Dan Gould]

Now that you are responding to my posts, try answering the questions that I have posed multiple times already:

IF STEROIDS DON'T HELP YOU HIT HOME RUNS, WHY DID BONDS UNDERTAKE SUCH A MASSIVE EFFORT TO RESHAPE HIS BODY AND ADD FORTY POUNDS OF MUSCLE?

IF STEROIDS DON'T HELP YOU HIT HOME RUNS, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE FACT THAT BONDS HOME RUN RATE SKYROCKETED AFTER HE HIRED GREG ANDERSON, ACCEPTED SHIPMENTS FROM BALCO, AND ADDED THOSE 40 POUNDS OF MUSCLE?

HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE FACT THAT BONDS SLUGGING PERCENTAGE SKYROCKETED AT AN AGE WHEN EVERY OTHER HISTORICALLY GREAT BALLPLAYER SEES STEADY DECLINE, IN HIS LATE 30s?

[connoisseur series500]

Now that you are responding to my posts, try answering the questions that I have posed multiple times already:

IF STEROIDS DON'T HELP YOU HIT HOME RUNS, WHY DID BONDS UNDERTAKE SUCH A MASSIVE EFFORT TO RESHAPE HIS BODY AND ADD FORTY POUNDS OF MUSCLE?

IF STEROIDS DON'T HELP YOU HIT HOME RUNS, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE FACT THAT BONDS HOME RUN RATE SKYROCKETED AFTER HE HIRED GREG ANDERSON, ACCEPTED SHIPMENTS FROM BALCO, AND ADDED THOSE 40 POUNDS OF MUSCLE?

HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE FACT THAT BONDS SLUGGING PERCENTAGE SKYROCKETED AT AN AGE WHEN EVERY OTHER HISTORICALLY GREAT BALLPLAYER SEES STEADY DECLINE, IN HIS LATE 30s?

Your arguments are compelling, Dan, but my problem is that we don't know how many other sluggers over the last decade or so were also 'roiding up. Maybe even Ruth took some kind of special snake oil in the 20s/30s which would be banned today.

I still think Barry's feat is tremendous--steroids or no. Home run record is just a statistic. Anyone in the top 30-40 list were GREAT ballplayers.