R'nR Hall of Fame

[danasgoodstuff]

and the nominees are: Madonna, chic, Afrika Bambata, Beasties, Melloncamp, Leonard Cohen, Donna Summer, Ventures, DC5

which has lead to the usual handwringing re what is R'nR...now it's your turn.

[Alexander]

and the nominees are: Madonna, chic, Afrika Bambata, Beasties, Melloncamp, Leonard Cohen, Donna Summer, Ventures, DC5

which has lead to the usual handwringing re what is R'nR...now it's your turn.

I don't have a problem with any of these selections. Madonna, Chic, and Donna Summers are all excellent examples of disco/dance pop. Madonna was predicted to be a one-trick pony when she first emerged in the early-80s, but the woman has managed to sustain a career for more than two decades. That takes more than a little talent (and more than a little good business sense), whatever I personally think of her music (doesn't do anything for me). I've previously mentioned my admiration for the Beasties on this board, so I don't think it's necessary to do so again. Mellencamp is another supposed one-trick pony (he was originally lambasted for being a weak Springsteen clone) who has managed to keep turning out solid albums over the years (I am a fan of his). The Ventures were pioneer surf-rockers. Afrika Bambataa is a hip-hop pioneer (he's only been covered by Jason Moran and collaborated with James Brown, in addition to other achievements). I'm not personally all that familiar with the Dave Clarke Five, but I know that they are pretty highly regarded by fans of the British Invasion. Leonard Cohen is a master and one of my all time favorite artists, so I actually think that his nomination is long overdue. Also, my uncle used to play in his band.

Edited September 30, 2007 by Alexander

[Kalo]

Chic was one of the smartest and most influential bands of its era, sampled by rappers as well as appropriated by Queen and the New Wave.

Great songs with great grooves, innovatively produced, played by a bassist, drummer, and guitarist who were all exciting, top-notch and much-imitated instrumentalists(plus singers and occasional strings and keys).

If that ain't rock'n'roll, then what is?

[Kalo]

Dave Clark Five are actually the weakest of all the nominees, as I see it.

[John L]

Dave Clark Five are actually the weakest of all the nominees, as I see it.

Weaker than Donna Summer? I never understood the big deal about her: mediocrity personified. Madonna is a genius next to Donna Summer (IMO).

[Jazzmoose]

I agree. Donna Summers was about as important in her day as Britney Spears is in ours. Okay, that's overstating it, but compared to Chic, The Ohio Players, and others I remember hearing in discos, she was pedestrian at best.

Oh shit, did I just admit going to discos?

[GARussell]

The Ventures, without a doubt! They were the leading instrumental band for a decade, from Walk Don't Run to Hawaii 5-0. For a while in the mid-60s they issued four albums per year.

The Dave Clark Five were the #2 British Invasion band next to the Beatles in 1964. Their sound became tired after three years and they were unable to change with the times; but in my view the HOF should include almost all of the 1964 British Invasion bands. Not only did those bands have many hits, but they completely wiped off the map the artists of the Kennedy administration. They also brought into the fold many fans born between 1946 and 1954. People forget (or never realized) that there were plenty of teenagers who didn't like rock and roll until the British Invasion hit.

The Kennedy administration acts were pawns of the record companies. The British Invasion bands were musicians who had honed their skills in night clubs over time before they recorded.

[Van Basten II]

The Rock N Roll HOF is it for people who have a Rock N Roll lifestyle, maybe it could explain some nominations ? Should call it the Commercial music hall of fame, not a great selling name at least it would be truer.

Then again, who cares, these allegedly HOFs are basically cash cows to attract tourists and if they want to garner some publicity they have to nominate people with mass appeal.

[Big Al]

The Ventures, without a doubt! They were the leading instrumental band for a decade, from Walk Don't Run to Hawaii 5-0. For a while in the mid-60s they issued four albums per year.

Absolutely!!!

[paul secor]

The Rock N Roll HOF is it for people who have a Rock N Roll lifestyle, maybe it could explain some nominations ? Should call it the Commercial music hall of fame, not a great selling name at least it would be truer.

Then again, who cares, these allegedly HOFs are basically cash cows to attract tourists and if they want to garner some publicity they have to nominate people with mass appeal.

Amen. Who cares about the R&R HoF?

Edited September 30, 2007 by paul secor

[BruceH]

Chic was one of the smartest and most influential bands of its era, sampled by rappers as well as appropriated by Queen and the New Wave.

Great songs with great grooves, innovatively produced, played by a bassist, drummer, and guitarist who were all exciting, top-notch and much-imitated instrumentalists(plus singers and occasional strings and keys).

If that ain't rock'n'roll, then what is?

The Ramones?

[BruceH]

Dave Clark Five are actually the weakest of all the nominees, as I see it.

I was going to say something about their nomination making me glad all over, but forget it.

Actually, I pretty much agree with GARussell about them.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

The Ventures, without a doubt! They were the leading instrumental band for a decade, from Walk Don't Run to Hawaii 5-0. For a while in the mid-60s they issued four albums per year.

The Dave Clark Five were the #2 British Invasion band next to the Beatles in 1964. Their sound became tired after three years and they were unable to change with the times; but in my view the HOF should include almost all of the 1964 British Invasion bands. Not only did those bands have many hits, but they completely wiped off the map the artists of the Kennedy administration. They also brought into the fold many fans born between 1946 and 1954. People forget (or never realized) that there were plenty of teenagers who didn't like rock and roll until the British Invasion hit.

The Kennedy administration acts were pawns of the record companies. The British Invasion bands were musicians who had honed their skills in night clubs over time before they recorded.

The Dave Clark Five was about the only signficant band of that era to emerge from North London. When I heard their first records, boy, was I glad I lived in West London! We had Cliff Bennett & the Rebel Rousers, Screaming Lord Sutch & the Savages, Chris Farlowe & the Thunderbirds, Manfred Mann (then known as the Mann-Hugg Blues Menn), The Yardbirds, the Rolling Stones as our local bands, plus a weekly visit from Alexis Korner's Blues Incorporated.

DC5 stunk.

However, you're right about the importance of the British invasion. Apart from R&B artists, and the early surf bands like the Ventures, Beach Boys and Dick Dale & the Deltones, there really wasn't much going on in the US. Well, there were all those teen idols like Fabian, Frankie Avalon, Ricky Nelson, Bobby Rydell etc etc and their female equivlents, some of whom were at least as good looking as the teen idols (Ann-Margaret, Shelley Fabares). What was a bit of a surprise was that some of them, like Lou Christie, didn't get swept away; there must be a deep-seated need among young Americans for good looking boy singers. (All the British teen idols did get swept away, though John Leyton managed a decent career in the films.)

MG

Edited September 30, 2007 by The Magnificent Goldberg

[AndrewHill]

Totally off subject, but the R n R Hall of Fame is cool in my book for including in their huge drumstick display a stick from Tony Williams. I believe it was from the 'Lifetime/Emergency' days.

BTW, it is stange to hear Madonna as an inductee; I guess it has to do with the fact that I've watched the 'Lucky Star' video when I was growing up.

[paul secor]

The Ventures, without a doubt! They were the leading instrumental band for a decade, from Walk Don't Run to Hawaii 5-0. For a while in the mid-60s they issued four albums per year.

The Dave Clark Five were the #2 British Invasion band next to the Beatles in 1964. Their sound became tired after three years and they were unable to change with the times; but in my view the HOF should include almost all of the 1964 British Invasion bands. Not only did those bands have many hits, but they completely wiped off the map the artists of the Kennedy administration. They also brought into the fold many fans born between 1946 and 1954. People forget (or never realized) that there were plenty of teenagers who didn't like rock and roll until the British Invasion hit.

The Kennedy administration acts were pawns of the record companies. The British Invasion bands were musicians who had honed their skills in night clubs over time before they recorded.

The Dave Clark Five was about the only signficant band of that era to emerge from North London. When I heard their first records, boy, was I glad I lived in West London! We had Cliff Bennett & the Rebel Rousers, Screaming Lord Sutch & the Savages, Chris Farlowe & the Thunderbirds, Manfred Mann (then known as the Mann-Hugg Blues Menn), The Yardbirds, the Rolling Stones as our local bands, plus a weekly visit from Alexis Korner's Blues Incorporated.

DC5 stunk.

However, you're right about the importance of the British invasion. Apart from R&B artists, and the early surf bands like the Ventures, Beach Boys and Dick Dale & the Deltones, there really wasn't much going on in the US. Well, there were all those teen idols like Fabian, Frankie Avalon, Ricky Nelson, Bobby Rydell etc etc and their female equivlents, some of whom were at least as good looking as the teen idols (Ann-Margaret, Shelley Fabares). What was a bit of a surprise was that some of them, like Lou Christie, didn't get swept away; there must be a deep-seated need among young Americans for good looking boy singers. (All the British teen idols did get swept away, though John Leyton managed a decent career in the films.)

MG

I never bought into the party line of the British invasion "saving" the American popular music scene. Yeah, the teen idol thing had taken over the white rock & roll scene, but white artists had never been a major force in rock & roll even before that. I'm talking about creating good music, not selling records. The 50s had some good rockabilly cats, a few good white doo-wop groups, and Link Wray - someone far more important than Dick Dale and the Ventures - but they'd been disappeared from the scene by the 1960s. The Everly Brothers had run out of steam by 1963 - the voices were still great, but the hit records had stopped. Roy Orbison - sorry, Clem - was still doing it when the British invasion hit. (To me, Elvis was in some kind of nowhere land, and he never found his way out of that nowhere land.)

"Apart from R&B artists" - that's a pretty big Apart. People like Gary U.S. Bonds, Arthur Alexander, Sam Cooke, Hank Ballard & the Midnighters, Jackie Wilson, The Drifters, Lee Dorsey, Booker T & the MGs, The Miracles, The Contours, and let's not forget Ray Charles, were all making records that hit the top 40/30/20/10 charts in the early 60s - and were making great records that still sound great today. The whole soul thing was taking shape around that time. James Brown had been making music that the white audience hadn't (or had rarely) heard, Otis was just starting to come into his own at Stax, Wilson Pickett - first with The Falcons and then on his own - was just breaking loose. All of this occurred before the British invasion, and I'll put up any of this music against any British invasion music.

The British invasion was a marketing ploy to sell records to white kids - nothing more nothing less - at least IMO. I'm sure that others will disagree - and I'll admit to a liking for some of Dusty Springfield's and Ray Davies' recordings - but in general, the whole British invasion - the fact that it was given a name like that says something - was just a ploy.

Edited October 1, 2007 by paul secor

[GARussell]

Well Paul, I'd like to respond on a couple of counts. When I talk about rock 'n' roll of the '60s, I'm talking about the white artists except for maybe Jimi Hendrix and I guess Sly Stone who both came later like in '67. The blacks were r&b. So I don't think your defense of r&b is relevant to my argument that the British bands wiped the Kennedy administration record co. pawns off the map.

Interesting that you mention the r&b artists that you do, because as I recall a number of them quit having white radio station hits after Jan.1, 1964: for example Gary US Bonds, Arthur Alexander, Hank Ballard and The Contours.

I also disagree with your view that the British Invasion was a ploy of the record cos. to sell music to white kids. As I recall the kids (the market) were in control; the record companies had (for the time being) lost control. The cos. were scrambling to sign any British act they could. As I said above, the British bands had honed their skills for years in nightclubs. It was the American acts who were created by the record companies, and who promptly lost favor with the kids.

I also note that the British bands each had many hits. The record co. pawns were often one-hit wonders.

edit for grammar

Edited October 1, 2007 by GARussell

[Alexander]

The British Invasion was certainly NOT engineered by record companies. Capitol Records (the American arm of EMI, which was the parent company of Parlaphone) was quite convinced that the Beatles would have absolutely NO appeal to American listeners, and flatly refused to release any of their records in the US (this despite the fact that Capitol technically WORKED for EMI). EMI had to release the Beatles in the US through Vee-Jay first, and it was only after they had gotten some airplay in the US that Capitol decided to jump on the bandwagon (and sued the hell out of Vee-Jay). Had Capitol planned this all along, I think they would have been more amenible to releasing the Beatles in the first place. In fact, as I recall seeing in one documentary about the Beatles, EMI was told by the suits at Capitol that "the British don't know how to make rock and roll records."

[John L]

The Ventures, without a doubt! They were the leading instrumental band for a decade, from Walk Don't Run to Hawaii 5-0. For a while in the mid-60s they issued four albums per year.

The Dave Clark Five were the #2 British Invasion band next to the Beatles in 1964. Their sound became tired after three years and they were unable to change with the times; but in my view the HOF should include almost all of the 1964 British Invasion bands. Not only did those bands have many hits, but they completely wiped off the map the artists of the Kennedy administration. They also brought into the fold many fans born between 1946 and 1954. People forget (or never realized) that there were plenty of teenagers who didn't like rock and roll until the British Invasion hit.

The Kennedy administration acts were pawns of the record companies. The British Invasion bands were musicians who had honed their skills in night clubs over time before they recorded.

The Dave Clark Five was about the only signficant band of that era to emerge from North London. When I heard their first records, boy, was I glad I lived in West London! We had Cliff Bennett & the Rebel Rousers, Screaming Lord Sutch & the Savages, Chris Farlowe & the Thunderbirds, Manfred Mann (then known as the Mann-Hugg Blues Menn), The Yardbirds, the Rolling Stones as our local bands, plus a weekly visit from Alexis Korner's Blues Incorporated.

DC5 stunk.

However, you're right about the importance of the British invasion. Apart from R&B artists, and the early surf bands like the Ventures, Beach Boys and Dick Dale & the Deltones, there really wasn't much going on in the US. Well, there were all those teen idols like Fabian, Frankie Avalon, Ricky Nelson, Bobby Rydell etc etc and their female equivlents, some of whom were at least as good looking as the teen idols (Ann-Margaret, Shelley Fabares). What was a bit of a surprise was that some of them, like Lou Christie, didn't get swept away; there must be a deep-seated need among young Americans for good looking boy singers. (All the British teen idols did get swept away, though John Leyton managed a decent career in the films.)

MG

I never bought into the party line of the British invasion "saving" the American popular music scene. Yeah, the teen idol thing had taken over the white rock & roll scene, but white artists had never been a major force in rock & roll even before that. I'm talking about creating good music, not selling records. The 50s had some good rockabilly cats, a few good white doo-wop groups, and Link Wray - someone far more important than Dick Dale and the Ventures - but they'd been disappeared from the scene by the 1960s. The Everly Brothers had run out of steam by 1963 - the voices were still great, but the hit records had stopped. Roy Orbison - sorry, Clem - was still doing it when the British invasion hit. (To me, Elvis was in some kind of nowhere land, and he never found his way out of that nowhere land.)

"Apart from R&B artists" - that's a pretty big Apart. People like Gary U.S. Bonds, Arthur Alexander, Sam Cooke, Hank Ballard & the Midnighters, Jackie Wilson, The Drifters, Lee Dorsey, Booker T & the MGs, The Miracles, The Contours, and let's not forget Ray Charles, were all making records that hit the top 40/30/20/10 charts in the early 60s - and were making great records that still sound great today. The whole soul thing was taking shape around that time. James Brown had been making music that the white audience hadn't (or had rarely) heard, Otis was just starting to come into his own at Stax, Wilson Pickett - first with The Falcons and then on his own - was just breaking loose. All of this occurred before the British invasion, and I'll put up any of this music against any British invasion music.

The British invasion was a marketing ploy to sell records to white kids - nothing more nothing less - at least IMO. I'm sure that others will disagree - and I'll admit to a liking for some of Dusty Springfield's and Ray Davies' recordings - but in general, the whole British invasion - the fact that it was given a name like that says something - was just a ploy.

Interesting observations.

My feeling is that the significance of the British invasion was not so much in the quality of the music that they brought, but in the impact that they had on mainstream (white) pop music. In the late 1950s and early 1960s, the American music industry carried out a deliberate and organized suppression of Rock and Roll and R&B. Artists like James Brown had no chance of crossing over at that time. Sam Cooke's first attempts at crossover tell the story well: sickly sweet pop dities that could stand along side Pat Boone on the pop charts at the time. Of course, Sam could breathe magic even into songs like that, but the point stands. True, Ray Charles cut a few wild ones that dented the charts (as an exception). But even Ray was toning down the R&B that he cut for Atlantic in favor of country and softer pop ballads. Jackie Wilson suffered through a lot of bad but obligatory material during that time as well.

True, this suppression of Rock and Roll and black music in America would have certainly come to an end even without the British invasion. And you are right that we can see signs of this already in 1962-1963. But the British invasion just blew a giant hole in the music industry strategy, and made the record companies and radio stations shift gears back to Rock and Roll and, by implication, R&B. I agree with Alexander that the British invasion was not at all a marketing ploy by the American music industry. On the contrary. It took them by surprise.

Edited October 1, 2007 by John L

[JSngry]

Donna Summer w/o Georgio Moroder gets you nowhere fast, but that's not how it happened, so there you are.

Still remember the first time I heard "I Feel Love". Froze me in my tracks. Yeahyeahyeah Krautrock yeahyeahyeah, but this was sexual. This is pop we're talking about after all, so let's keep it real - sex matters.

One could say that she was the original "Disco Diva", and for whatever that is or isn't worth, hey. This is pop we're talking about after all, so let's keep it real - archetypes matter.

If the awards is for "Donna Summer" instead of Donna Summer, then it's deserved.

Edited October 1, 2007 by JSngry

[John L]

You're basically making the point the most of us can agree with: Donna Summer was a genuine pop culture icon.

The question is "does being a pop culture icon singer alone mean that you should be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?" If the answer is yes, then fine. But why then call it a "Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?" Donna Summer didn't do any Rock and Roll that I can remember.

The category of disco divas includes some pretty talented singers: Candi Staton, Thelma Houston, Gloria Gaynor. Musically, Donna Summer was nothing compared to them (IMO).

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Link Wray - someone far more important than Dick Dale and the Ventures

GAR, John and Alexander have said overnight much the same thing as I would have seid, but I can't let that one go by.

Link Wray was BETTER - by about twelve million miles - than Dale and the Ventures. But I can't see that he was more important. In the same way, Donna (and Giorgio) were outclassed by some of the other singers involved in disco, but those other singers weren't more important than Summer/Moroder.

(Unless, of course, it's clear that scores of later Rock guitarists took their inspiration from Wray, which I've never heard, though I admit to lacking interest in Rock.)

MG

[BERIGAN]

Well, just started a new thread , then saw this...so just cutting and pasting here....

While I don't get his desire to have Paul Anka or Chubby Checker in there, but, Chic, Donna Summer, Madonna, for the Rock N' Roll hall??? Man, what a joke the hall has become....

Rolling Stone Magazine Hits a Sour Note Over Hall of Fame Nominees

Sunday, September 30, 2007

By Roger Friedman

I’ve never participated in a boycott — not of lettuce or grapes or anything else. But enough is enough. After the announcement late Friday of the nominees’ ballot for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, there’s only thing to do: Hit publisher Wenner, who controls the Rock Hall, where it hurts.

If you love Rock and Roll, stop buying Rolling Stone until the tremendous insults of the Hall of Fame are corrected.

Wenner’s nominating committee consists largely of his current and former employees from Rolling Stone (Nathan Brackett, David Fricke, Jim Henke, Joe Levy, Brian Keizer, Toure, and Anthony DeCurtis). But they have little say over who really is inducted.

Last year, in a story reported by this column exclusively, Wenner threw out a vote in which the classic British invasion group Dave Clark Five was voted in and changed it for another round that favored rappers Grandmaster Flash.

As one insider from the Hall has maintained, "Once Ahmet Ertegun died, Jann felt like he could run wild." The legendary co founder of Atlantic Records was considered the only person who could control Wenner. He died in 2006.

The Dave Clark Five incident has repercussions, however. I’m told that consequently, Wenner was made to meet Clark after I broke that story last March. The group now is guaranteed entry, although it’s a bittersweet win. They are probably not, to paraphrase one of its hits, "Glad All Over."

But now this year’s choices are a complete affront to fans of Rock and Roll Hall. And to show how much Wenner controls what’s happening, the exclusive announcement was made on Rolling Stone’s Web site.

If you’re still reading or buying Rolling Stone, it’s time to stop.

This year’s ballot shows that the Hall has skipped over the seminal '70s for the worthless '80s. The committee has chosen dance music over rock. They’ve all but ignored the pioneers who influenced the genre in favor of non sequiturs.

The choices: dance group Chic, hip-hop pioneer Afrika Bambaataa, mediocre Springsteen wannabe John Mellencamp (a Wenner crony who’s lost out on many tries), white rappers the Beastie Boys, disco queen Donna Summer and, of course, Madonna.

Among "older" names: the aforementioned DC5, instrumentalists the Ventures and Leonard Cohen.

Here’s the idea: that these names should enter the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame before such historically important and influential acts as Iggy Pop and the Stooges, "fifth Beatle" Billy Preston or performer/producer Todd Rundgren.

They aren’t the only ones.

Major groups the Hall voters deem "not hip": The Moody Blues (simply for "Days of Future Passed"), Chicago (for its first two seminal albums). Hall & Oates, Yes, Genesis, J Geils Band, Alice Cooper and KISS also are names often mentioned by critics.

Also left wanting: stars such as Carly Simon and Linda Ronstadt, who were mainstays of Rolling Stone in the '70s, have been iced out. Carole King was inducted only as a writer with ex-husband Gerry Goffin. Her achievement as the creator of Tapestry, for years the best-selling album of all time, has been ignored.

Neil Sedaka ("Calendar Girl," "Breaking Up Is Hard to Do") is not in the Hall of Fame. Neither is Neil Diamond ("I’m a Believer," "Sweet Caroline"). That’s right. They only wrote half the hits that modern groups cover or sample. Go figure.

The late Laura Nyro, who also wrote a dozen or so hits, is absent, as is Leon Russell, whose songs "This Masquerade" and "A Song for You" are among the most covered by pop acts. He also was a member of Spector’s legendary band, as were other nonmembers Glen Campbell and Sonny Bono.

Then there are the R&B performers who remain in the cold, such as Tina Turner, Dionne Warwick, Motown legends Mary Wells, the Marvelettes and the Spinners, not to mention Ben E. King ("Stand by Me" and dozens of hits on Atlantic), Stax Records legends Carla and Rufus Thomas, Phil Spector star Darlene Love, Joe Tex, Al Green and, of course, Chubby Checker, whom the Hall denies over and over again despite his invention of rock’s greatest dance hit, "The Twist."

Neither John Fogerty, Lou Reed, Peter Gabriel, Ringo Starr, Tom Waits, Steve Winwood, Diana Ross, Steve Miller nor Sonny Burgess — the man behind Elvis Presley —is in the Hall of Fame.

OK, just so we’re straight on why Rolling Stone must be boycotted. It wants the Beastie Boys before Randy Newman, The Hollies, Tom Jones or Mitch Ryder’s "Devil in the Blue Dress."

Controversial Cat Stevens also stays in the cold despite his dozen or so hits and his influence on singer-songwriters of his era. And I haven’t even raised the idea of Poco, Aaron Neville, the Turtles, Gram Parsons and hitmakers Three Dog Night, whose members made hits for dozens of new songwriters including Harry Nilsson, John Hiatt, Jimmy Cliff, Hoyt Axton, Paul Williams and Randy Newman.

The lists go on and on. You can see more names at www.futurerockhall.com.

The Hall has caused its own problems over the years. It no longer includes three categories that the Hall introduced, then eliminated: non performers, side men and early influences. The nominating committee, with a couple of exceptions who are obviously ignored, is simply too young and uneducated in popular music history to select entries in those groupings.

It’s a pathetic, ridiculous situation and it must be stopped.

Of the new crop, I don’t have much to say that’s positive. Madonna is a steamroller because of the cult of personality. She’s not a rocker, she has a thin voice and she doesn’t write her own material. But she’s a force of nature.

There’s no stopping Madonna when she wants something. Chances are good she won’t bring Steve Bray, Patrick Leonard, William Orbit and all her writers and producers to the stage. They are Madonna.

Chic is a fun idea with great songs, but it was really producer-writer Nile Rodgers and his partner Bernard Summers who made it work as a dance group. Rodgers should be in as a hugely successful producer of music by David Bowie, Ross and others. Summers can be thanked. Chic, however, is not rock.

The rest are totally off base given the above list. Summer was a disco act. For her to get in before Ronstadt is a joke. Mellencamp at least plays rock. But he’s a minor note in the genre’s history.

Afrika Bambaataa and the Beastie Boys: Are they kidding? Even the latter must be laughing. They had one big hit, "You’ve Got to Fight for Your Right to Party." The former, while I’m sure quite lovely, is a record-scratcher with a great name. Each of these belongs in a Rap Hall of Fame.

And it’s not that I am against hip-hop or rap artists in the Hall of Fame. But Run-DMC is the obvious choice for an act in that genre that crossed into rock. Apart from its own music, Run-DMC’s partnership with Aerosmith on "Walk This Way" brought hip-hop to a new level and standard. No one would argue with its inclusion.

Of the two senior acts aside from the DC5, the Ventures probably are a good idea. The Hall lacks instrumentalists. But Cohen should be in as a writer. His morose style never once crossed into rock, and he knows it.

Diamond, Sedaka, and Simon have among them dozens more actual rock hits as writers and performers. Come on. And Cohen’s songs have not nearly had the same impact on rock as those by Jimmy Webb. He’s also been snubbed by Wenner’s crew.

By the way: The Hall of Fame Foundation, which Wenner runs with toadie Joel Peresman, has nothing to do with the Rock and Rock Hall of Fame Museum in Cleveland, Ohio. "Jann treats the museum like a toy and has no respect for Terry Stewart," an insider says. Stewart runs the museum with no regard for Wenner’s exclusions.

Last year the Hall claimed to have given away only $158,968 of its $12 million war chest to needy musicians. It gave $56,236 to the museum to maintain its own archives. The museum must raise its own money.

Peresman is thought to get between $300,000 — what the previous director was paid — and $500,000.

New board members include wealthy businessmen Craig Hatkoff (co-founder of the Tribeca Film Festival) and Dirk Ziff (heir to a media fortune), nice guys who have no connection to the music business or rock and roll at all. They’re Wenner’s friends. Famed rocker Jay Z — ha ha — also has joined.

Former inductees to the Hall, by the way, must buy their own tickets to the annual Waldorf Astoria dinner. Tickets cost $3,500. Few, if any, show up anymore for the big jam session at the end of the night.

(These selections for 2008 are terrible, but they’re just the beginning, too, of what’s going to be a weird ride, thanks to the new generation. To wit: Kanye West is scheduled to be honored by the Chicago branch of the Recording Academy soon.

This means that other artists will have to perform a tribute to him by performing his music. Only: He has no music. West samples existing records. So someone will have to sample a sample to praise him. It’s sad.

So: I don’t know anyone who buys or reads Rolling Stone, but someone must since Wenner Media seems to make money. It can’t all be Us Weekly. Until real rock is served by the Hall of Fame, please don’t buy Rolling Stone or click on any of the ads on its Web site. Then maybe Wenner will get the message that no one can take his Rock and Roll Hall of Fame seriously anymore.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,298681,00.html

[MoGrubb]

I have absolutely nothing, at least positive, to add to this thread's conversation except to say that early Little Richard, Fats Domino and Jerry "Killer" Lee Lewis were putting out the only rock that was worth a shit. I grew out of Elvis and Chuck Berry (and type stuff) around 1957; both were popular, but neither rocked like the aforementioned. Doo-wop always sucked, had a cheesy quality to it that turned my stomach. [Never got into any of it for nostalgia either.] I view the Beatles/British invasion as the milestone that changed recording techniques with heavy editing and the use of electronic enhancement, and the synthesizer, which marked the beginning of the end of much work for horn players.

re: volume

Rock was played loudly for large venues, yet the volume level was sustained for smaller venues which made it unbearable, and dangerous.

Fuck that whole scene/shit.

Rock Hall of Fame? A huge farce, merely a commercial venture.

Edited October 1, 2007 by MoGrubb

[Big Beat Steve]

To a European interested in the history of popular music, this whole debate is pointless or, to put it another way, it 's a case of GROSS MISLABELING.

ROCK'N'ROLL in the true sense of the word is ONLY the rock music made from approx. 1954 to 1963 (before the British Invasion gained full momentum), i.e. Rock'n'Roll used as a denominator for as the mainstream style within the genre, plus subgenres such as Rockabilly, the R'n'R end of R&B of that time, Doo-Wop, Instrumental R'n'R, Surf, etc., PLUS those musicians/bands/acts that played after the end of the R'n'R era and still play (or play again) in that idiom today (and the musical subculture of true R'n'R is still alive and kicking all around the world, cf. the numerous R'n'R/Rockabilly weekenders such as those in Las Vegas, etc.).

Anything that came after the real R'n'R of '54 to '63 just ain't that - it may be Garage Punk, Psychedelic Rock, Folk Rock, Hard Rock, Indpeendent Rock, Heavy Metal, Punk Rock, and everything that came on afterwards but as long as it does not fall into the stylistic genres of real R'n'R as delimited above it's not that (and no R'n'R lover over here would classify it as R'n'R) but just plain ROCK. Nothing wrong with that, but let's call it by its proper name. :D

(Yeah, I know, US pop listeners and the Powers-that-be ever in search of a marketing tag draw the line elsewhere, and yet ... )

This way of arguing just dilutes things endlessly if you throw everything into the same pot, and in the end the term R'n'R becomes totally meaningless.

That said, I wholeheartedly agree with Van Basten II's statement about Commercial Music Hall of Fame above.

Most of those nominees (with the obvious exception of the Ventures) just ain't beeen part of the actual R'n'R movement, least of all stylistically.

[JSngry]

The question is "does being a pop culture icon singer alone mean that you should be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?" If the answer is yes, then fine. But why then call it a "Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?"

Are we going to pretend that "Rock and Roll" is this..."pure art form" that's about music first and sociology second (if at all)?

C'mon....