Glad to be back

[Niko]

With all due respect, that's not at all an accurate or complete depiction of what went down....

another refugee? (kinda reminds me of how Gandalf and the dwarves approach Beorn... only very gradually it becomes apparent that the whole board with all its issues is swapping over)

[JSngry]

the kind of spontaneous thinking that could see a thread largely about another forum soar/plunge/morph into one about haircuts and so on.

Well, this is primarily a JAZZ forum. Those of us who can't play instruments have to do it some way (and so do some of us who can).

MG

I agree. The AAJ mentality seems to deter out and out goofiness and thread hijacking in general.

Gotta have the goofiness.

Got to.

[EulaM]

For those of us who stopped visiting AAJ some time ago, is there a short version of what happened over there that anyone cares to share?

From what I gather, Ed Byrne and "Clave" had disagreements on the Musician thread and another one about musical theory. I hadn't really followed what happened between them, but Mike didn't like Clave and Ed's back and forths and came down on Ed's side of the situation going on between them. Then when a thread became somewhat abusive towards Ed, nothing at all being said against Ed by Clave, when humor was injected by JFitzGenius, after a comment about berets being worn, and JFitz talking about Cowboy hats being Verboten, Clave posted a photo of a musican in a black hat, and then of another one in a Cowboy hat, we kibitzed back and forth about Cowboys, rednecks, (me telling about an encounter with a couple of no talent singer guitar players singing about Rich and myself one afternoon), nothing at all was being said or implied about Ed being anything at all. It was just humor on a thread that was going nowhere, it had run it's course, and Ed had left the equasion, so those posts were deleted, and Clave was told she'd be banned as they wanted to keep the posts on jazz and wanted them to be intelligent and if she didn't stay off the musician board, and follow directives about the post Jay Noram had started on Ed, she would be banned. So in the end that's what happened, she was banned. Much ado about nothing.

With all due respect, that's not at all an accurate or complete depiction of what went down. As has been posted by both Mike and the "goon from Ottawa," JKelman, it was a little more complicated than that. Mike asked clave to stop posting in a particular thread as the result of a conflict with Ed Byrne who, like Clave, has his share of supporters and detractors. She chose to ignore him and continued to post. Mike then banned her temporarily, in order to (a) try and let the situation defuse, (b) accommodate the fact that he was in the beginning of a house move, and © make his feelings about her ignoring his request as a moderator known. That a number of posts were removed was in the interest of trying to separate the wheat from the chaff, since the thread had begun dissolving (no pun intended!), even if some of the posts were themselves innocuous. It wasn't those posts that were the issue.

Clave signed back on - not once, not twice, but multiple times, and took the conflict public in a big way. Mike banned her permanently as a result and, being in the middle of a house move and largely offline, was unable to address it or other folks' posts in any great detail - only being able to get online occasionally during a five-day period (JKelman tried to throw in a different perspective, but was largely ignored or argued with).

Mike is now back online and planning to organize a teleconference with interested parties to discuss the situation and come to a resolution that will, hopefully, make as many people as possible happy. AAJ board members can check out the thread in the "About the Board" forum if they're interested in participating, which seems like a good idea to me. Mike also wants to step down as a moderator, as does JKelman - not because of any pressure to do so from board members or because of this particular incident (though it does appear to be the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back), but because they're both apparently way too busy with developing/growing the main website, and the amount of time situations like this (and it's been leading to this for some time, apparently) take away from those long hours spent at the main site simply can't be sacrificed. Both are looking for people willing to take on this responsibility, but the bottom line appears to be: Mike (and JKelman) sound frankly pretty reasonable about the whole thing. Whether Mike's request of Ellen was legit/reasonable or not, it was escalated to a degree of unnecessary and destructive publicity by Clave.

The initial upset may be a subject on which people fall onto different sides as far as accountability, but it's likely this could have been handled a whole lot better, that's for sure; but if Mike is culpable for actions some believe to be draconian, then so, too, is Clave, who took what should have been a private conflict resolution process and made it a messy and hugely distruptive public one. So from where I stand there's fault to be had on both sides.

I think it's important to try and view this from a balanced perspective and, instead, the majority of folks weighing in on it are either for or against. It's not an either/or; it's a conflict, and one that should have been resolved quietly without any muss or fuss. Sadly that's not what happened.

DJ, I don't get your perspecitive. I see things differently from where and when I came into what was disruptive and rude on the thread which asked "Where's Ed?".

I had heard they, Ed and Clave. weren't a mutual admiration society early on, and that there had been some problems with the two of them disagreeing, and how Mike didn't like what it was Ellen was posting on two other totally separate threads. I didn't follow those threads, nor their back and forths. Those threads had absolutely nothing at all to do with the "Where's Ed?" thread.

Upon seeing the "Where's Ed?" posts, Mike joined in, and later on deleted posts which had turned to innocuous banter, photo's and such, with nothing insulting to. or about. Ed at all. Instead, the humor was pointed at the "Cowboy hats" being verboten joke by JFG, and since we live on a ranch with cowboy boots being worn by both Rich and myself, and with Rich wearing "Cowboy hats", I chimed in about it. and that was where the conversation was, on boots and hats, there were photo's about hats, with all of us joking around about JFitzgenius's earlier post.

Nothing whatsoever pointed at Ed, who I happen to like. These were the posts which were deleted: JFitzgeniuses', Claves, and mine, with one by Mike himself.

I still believe it was an over the top use of the delete function, really I do, and if Mike were to look back at it I think he would too. So what if a thread takes a humorous twist? Our posts weren't back biting, cruel or nasty humor, which often times goes down on some boards. It turned out that it's just how it is when friends get together to talk. It was silly, as was the banning over such an untroubling, unharmful bit of nonsense. It's Mikes board so he gets to do this, and he has his staunch backers on this, and that's OK too.

Mike thought it wasn't intelligent to use humor, him wanting to keep the board serious and intelligent, not degenerating away from jazz. Shoot, some of the best jazz men who ever lived used humor like you wouldn't believe. Being humorous was just who they were besides being so great at their craft. Mike is wanting to keep most of the conversations serious about jazz, with people like JFitz providing the humor. He is accepting of his takes, and we all love Jeff's humorous writings about things as well. But not to allow humor to pop up whenever a member might feel like it, I just can't understand it. This is what I percieved after Mikes explanation of why he threw out all of ours, and his lone post. All I know is they say it is the most intelligent who're capable of humor.

It seemed to me Mike had something else eating at him in his personal life, and I said what it might be in a questioning manner, as his stated explanations, were no more than an excuse to come down on Clave for past grieviences he might have harbored, or so I believed, as there had been earlier problems between Clave, Ed, and Mike, this from what I've heard. This is my own perception, and I don't think my previous explanation was wrong at all, and neither does Ellen aka Clave.

Frankly the posts being deleted was dumbfounding, however, it didn't mean that much to me, but banning's are something that I don't like to see. Not at all, as when I don't like what a member's posts, I really don't have to read on. I've never even used the "Ignore" function, except by mistake. I'm capable of shutting anyone out without clicking on a tab. I don't like bannings or threads being locked down, not even when I've been in the middle, and a target, so when a member is banned whom I really didn't care about that much, I've advocated for them, as I still enjoyed the discourse that would come up due to their posts. I didn't have to agree, but I liked the fact that they were allowed to speak their mind, even if some of it was aggravating as all get out. It was nice to know we had a place to see how everyone else thinks. There's oftentimes humor in that as well, as some peoples off the wall idea's are so bizarre that they're laughable.

My depiction wasn't inaccurate at all, it's your perception that has it twisted. It seems to me that in many respects you were only repeating what I've posted, except for your own thoughts on Mike and the moderators.

Edited January 29, 2008 by EulaM

[jlhoots]

Didn't the erstwhile Lon (jazzbo) get banned from AAJ for some rather pointless reason?

Perhaps he prefers not to comment.

[djbinder]

There used to be a jazz spot here in NYC, called Michael's Pub. It featured great music played by the very best in the business,l but it was a terrible place to go to, because the guy who ran it was a rude, attitude-ridden jerk. AAJ reminds me, in many ways, of Michael's Pub--which went out of business, BTW.

Funny, that's what AAJ said about you.

[djbinder]

well.... all I want to say is that seeline has never taken anything but the high road in this situation since she has been here, which I truly respect. She adds immensely to the board discussions. Their loss is most certainly our gain.

(and certainly John Kelman could speak for himself, eh? )

He's spoken plenty over there. Why should he here?

[djbinder]

With all due respect, that's not at all an accurate or complete depiction of what went down....

another refugee? (kinda reminds me of how Gandalf and the dwarves approach Beorn... only very gradually it becomes apparent that the whole board with all its issues is swapping over)

Nope, someone who lurks here and there, and sees the problem as being more complex than either clave-bashing OR AAJ bashing. My only issue is one of looking for balance.

Edited January 29, 2008 by djbinder

[Niko]

There used to be a jazz spot here in NYC, called Michael's Pub. It featured great music played by the very best in the business,l but it was a terrible place to go to, because the guy who ran it was a rude, attitude-ridden jerk. AAJ reminds me, in many ways, of Michael's Pub--which went out of business, BTW.

Funny, that's what AAJ said about you.

Moderators, where are you this guy is only here to insult us

[Christiern]

seeline: "Chris, I will NOT get into it with you or anyone else here on this board ..."

Who said anything about getting into something with you? I don't even know who you are, so calm down and stop making assumptions.

[Niko]

With all due respect, that's not at all an accurate or complete depiction of what went down....

another refugee? (kinda reminds me of how Gandalf and the dwarves approach Beorn... only very gradually it becomes apparent that the whole board with all its issues is swapping over)

Nope, someone who lurks here and there, and sees the problem as being more complex than either clave-bashing OR AAJ bashing. My only issue is one of looking for balance.

what balance? if i want to know what aaj is like i lurk overthere (i sometimes do)... we don't need an accurate picture of aaj in this thread (especially since you guys are giving each other a hard time these days) (just my opinion)

(i mean just from the fact that there are "refugees" one could infer that there was some dispute over there and that their opinions probably wouldn't give a complete description of feelings involved... thanks anyway, maybe i was a bit harsh)

[djbinder]

My depiction wasn't inaccurate at all, it's your perception that has it twisted.

Gee, I'd have thought someone looking for balance - acknowledging that, perhaps, there's bad on both sides, would be anything but twisted. If you follow what went down, it had nothing to do with those humorous posts. By that time the trouble was already in play. And I find it disingenuous that folks accuse Mike of having some problem, simply because he didn't air the thing on the board - until there was no choice but to do so, which was well after the problem began.

All I am saying is that there's blame to be had on both sides, and until folks realize that (and stop the AAJ bashing; geez, folks, how long have some of you been there anyway? Some bumps in the road and everyone piles in the bus and, despite explanations of Mike's absence and inability to respond, continue to assert that he's ALL the problem?

C'mon folks, balance. Most problems usually happen because of two people. I'm trying to remain impartial and suggest that, now that Mike is back online, his idea of inviting interested parties to a teleconference to discuss is a pretty open idea that will allow for frank discussion all around. How is that a problem?

[djbinder]

With all due respect, that's not at all an accurate or complete depiction of what went down....

another refugee? (kinda reminds me of how Gandalf and the dwarves approach Beorn... only very gradually it becomes apparent that the whole board with all its issues is swapping over)

Nope, someone who lurks here and there, and sees the problem as being more complex than either clave-bashing OR AAJ bashing. My only issue is one of looking for balance.

what balance? if i want to know what aaj is like i lurk overthere (i sometimes do)... we don't need an accurate picture of aaj in this thread (especially since you guys are giving each other a hard time these days) (just my opinion)

(i mean just from the fact that there are "refugees" one could infer that there was some dispute over there and that their opinions probably wouldn't give a complete description of feelings involved... thanks anyway, maybe i was a bit harsh)

Hey just to be clear, I didn't start this, but when I see folks misrepresenting the situation, I feel compelled to pipe in. And frequenting AAJ's board in lurker mode doesn't necessarily give you a full insight into the players anyway. Or what likely goes on behind the scenes when there's a problem that needs to be resolved.

Or is this now an attempt at censoring content on this board? Hmm. I thought that was what the problem was at AAJ....

[Aggie87]

I don't see any point in bringing any disputes over here and hashing them out here.

Some people are choosing to post here, and they are most welcome.

If people have issues on another board, for whatever, reason, let that stay there.

[djbinder]

Nope, someone who lurks here and there, and sees the problem as being more complex than either clave-bashing OR AAJ bashing. My only issue is one of looking for balance.

OK, in that spirit - I know you like noir books and movies. My latest pick (though it falls apart for me after a certain point) is this one. am wondering if you're read it yet? I *loved* the setting - it's surreal, yet completely real at the same time.

And Chris, I know you from AAJ, but as "clave." I really appreciated your comments + link on the Laura Nyro thread there, some months back. .

Nope, not read that one...currently working my way through a backlog of Andrew Vachss....but will add this to the lengthy list... :-)

[Christiern]

And Chris, I know you from AAJ, but as "clave." I really appreciated your comments + link on the Laura Nyro thread there, some months back. .

Thanks, Clave, it occurred to me that Michael's pub was a great place with bad vibes, so I drew the analogy--no intention of getting anyone into a confrontation.

[rachel]

well.... all I want to say is that seeline has never taken anything but the high road in this situation since she has been here, which I truly respect. She adds immensely to the board discussions. Their loss is most certainly our gain.

(and certainly John Kelman could speak for himself, eh? )

He's spoken plenty over there. Why should he here?

Yeah, you're right. You're speaking pretty well for him, I guess.

[catesta]

It's all about the balance.

[Niko]

...

Or is this now an attempt at censoring content on this board? Hmm. I thought that was what the problem was at AAJ....

i don't think i know aaj (in fact i didn't even read most of this thread...) my point was rather, if i want the info i can get it elsewhere, you're invited to disagree; besides that one of your posts was a relatively direct personal attack on Chris A (imho and given that with my bad english i maybe didn't quite get it) not censorship in my book to complain about that (and i was half joking)

Edited January 29, 2008 by Niko

[Christiern]

Good observation, Niko. Besides coming off like a shill for that other board, "djbinder" is obviously out to disrupt things here while making a pretense of being Mr. (Miss?) "fair and balanced." Transparent as clear glass, if you ask me.

[analogak]

Nope, not read that one...currently working my way through a backlog of Andrew Vachss....but will add this to the lengthy list... :-)

inari vachs favorite author is andrew vachss!!!!!!

[EulaM]

I don't see any point in bringing any disputes over here and hashing them out here.

Some people are choosing to post here, and they are most welcome.

If people have issues on another board, for whatever, reason, let that stay there.

Perhaps because of deletions, we feel we can hash things out in Organissimo's public forum without posts being deleted, being locked down, or members banned, or without members having the capacity of running behind a posters back to get a moderator to do the dirty deeds.

Good grief, Chris being banned, Lon being banned, long time contributors, one's who are part and parcel of what made the board over there interesting and gave it some backbone.

Edited January 29, 2008 by EulaM

[analogak]

is DJ Blinder the same as jkelman? is that what has been insinuated?

[EulaM]

is DJ Blinder the same as jkelman? is that what has been insinuated?

An insinuation from me? No, if that's what I'd been thinking I would have said so. I had no thoughts along that line. None at all.

[analogak]

not you...but other people are contributing to this thread who i thought i got that from.

not that i care. i am just trying to keep up.

this thread is sort of weird. i am all for bashing anything but i don't know about this thread.

[EulaM]

not you...but other people are contributing to this thread who i thought i got that from.

not that i care. i am just trying to keep up.

this thread is sort of weird. i am all for bashing anything but i don't know about this thread.

It's been a strange situation, one I don't quite get myself.

Usually when a post I've made, or a thread I've started wasn't appreciated by Mike, he sent me a note, and I would understand where he was coming from and if I didn't, I might not like it, but I respected his wishes and went along with what he was requesting of me, as well as with other moderators, some of whom I feel very comfortable with and like a lot. But this was a set of events which rubs the wrong way with me and with most other involved members, the ones who feel we all know one another. No one told me posts had been deleted or why, but that didn't get to me, it was threads being locked down and Clave's banning which bothered me a lot. I didn't always agree with Clave when she would lock a thread or remove a post either and she knows this about my thoughts on this issue full well, but for the most part, it never seemed to me that she did anything as a moderator for personal reasons, she did it fairly and treated all of us equally, or so it seemed to me.

As sensible as MG is, he left and came here due to Lonson's banning, two of my favorites were gone when those two left and Chris Albertson, there was another poster I truly enjoyed, he had been there forever and he was banned because he wouldn't buckle under as well.

Edited January 29, 2008 by EulaM