Glad to be back

[EulaM]

As I stated over there, how can "Clave" aka "Ellen" go back under the rules set down for her and retain her dignity?

It's a tough call, neither party wanting to acquiesce. It wasn't handled soon enough, that's been my thought and Mikes as well he tells me.

Everyone has stewed on it and it's grown and grown into a Macy's Parade monster, banging in to everyone standing about. Mike has told me he wished it had been handled differently, just as all of us have. But then there's Lonson and Chris having been banned, it did seem personal, not for the boards overall health. Those two alone have me backing everything Chris's saying, I don't believe Chris or Lonson were handled fairly by John. It were as if, there's those darned trees, when we all want to see is the forest. I don't think John looks at the broader picture, too many pre-existing objects, as well as thoughts are in his field of vision and between his rationale.

I like that board, it's been a good place to be, but things are changing dramatically, and not just due to moderators, those of you who have frequented it, must see it as I do, if not, well we're coming from a different place.

Edited February 3, 2008 by EulaM

[wordsandsounds]

I like that board, it's been a good place to be, but things are changing dramatically, and not just due to moderators, those of you who have frequented it, must see it as I do, if not, well we're coming from a different place.

Most definetly...

[djbinder]

The way I see it, Mike is under enormous pressure with all that work (he is also in the middle of moving to a new home), but that is, of course, not an excuse for letting things get out of hand. Speaking only of the bulletin board, his biggest mistake, IMHO, has been his choice of moderators. These are people whose persona, ability to interact with an eclectic group of people, and sense of fairness is of utmost importance. They set the tone for the board (hence my earlier analogy to Michael's Pub), they are also put in a position of power, which is something not everyone can handle. This guy from Ottawa obviously can't, and I am neither the only one to be targeted nor the only one to notice his serial abuse.

You can, of course, have your view of "the guy from Ottawa," but let's be clear about something: he didn't ban Lonson, nor did he ban Clave - Mike did. So if you want to levy accusations re: moderation of the board, don't just single out the one moderator, since all moderators have banned folks over time, at least from what I've seen. So I am not sure what you refer to by his "serial abuse," since it seems to me that you could then make the same accusation of all the moderators, not just the one you had a problem with. As I said way back in this thread? Balance, folks, please.

It appears that this guy's involvement with AAJ goes beyond the BBS and that he now will give up moderating the forum--that's a good sign. Clearly, AAJ has lost some of its most knowledgeable members, people like Chuck Nessa, MG, Bev, Lonson, Saundra, and others who love the music and stimulate thought, people who who shared their relevant experiences with fellow posters and answered many questions. Frivolous censorship does not sit well with independent thinkers. Free exchanges of ideas and thoughts can easily lead to an off path, but most such eruptions, if let alone, subside and let posting go on. There are also civil ways in which to settle differences, and barring posters--even short-term--is not the answer. It didn't work at AAJ, it only led to the present arguments and exodus. The Ottawa moderator is being very defensive but his arguments are an insult to intelligence. Some exiles will probably return, but I think much will depend on whether the atmosphere at AAJ can be made breathable. Let's hope this misguided bully's replacement is chosen with the care and foresight that was missing when he was handed the reins. I may be all wrong about this, but that's how I see it based on my own experience with this guy and what I just read in that thread.

I repeat: the guy from Ottawa is not the only moderator to have banned folks from the board, so just because you had a bad experience with him (and I'm not denying that) doesn't mean he's the singular problem with the board. The recent exodus, in fact, came as the result of the clave incident, and that was Mike's issue. And as far as I understand, MG left when Lonson was banned, and that was also Mike's doing. Not defending the guy from Ottawa, just saying he's by no means the only person who has been involved in what some folks see as a problem at the board.

And if you ever checked out the main site you'd see the Ottawa guy is a senior editor, responsible for the CD Review Center, Interviews, Artist Profiles and Upcoming Releases, in addition to being one of AAJ's more prolific contributors. Both he and Mike have posted on the AAJ board that they simply don't have time for moderation and that they need to focus on the main site. That may be good for the board, but depending on who takes their place, that's not a certainty. Still, Mike is planning the teleconference to discuss the board, and the guy from Ottawa will also be in attendance. They're both interested in finding proper resolution to the current situation, and want to hear what some folks have to say. So at least they're both being open-minded, at least it seems that way to me.

Edited February 3, 2008 by djbinder

[djbinder]

Thanks for the comments, Mike. Kelman has handled the forum very unprofessionally, IMO, but Mike R has also overreacted. Short-term banning is no solution, just a slap on the wrist that creates resentment or deepens one that already exists. Unfortunately, the Board also has some members who are chronic complainers and appear to see themselves as auxiliary forum police, and when their political bent is in the right direction--as it were--they have Mr. K's ears and impulses on their side. I said I was through with this topic, but (having impulses of my own ) I felt compelled to jump in with a response.

Whether or not Kelman banned you because of personal issues is unclear, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion. The only reason I question it is that he's had strong disagreements with others who remain active members. So it certainly would not be safe to draw the conclusion that he bans folks if they disagree with his personal views - at least some or most of the time. Like I said, can't comment on your situation, but seeing his posts over time, I'm certainly not inclined to believe it's a pattern.

[djbinder]

I don't believe Chris or Lonson were handled fairly by John. It were as if, there's those darned trees, when we all want to see is the forest. I don't think John looks at the broader picture, too many pre-existing objects, as well as thoughts are in his field of vision and between his rationale.

I repeat: John banned Chris; Mike banned Lonson. if you want to criticize someone, at least do it for things they've done, not the doings of others.

[jazzbo]

Hey David, yes, Lonson was banned. He was continually goaded and misquoted about his statement that he found the rest of the site boring, disagreed with the philosophy behind the review writing guidelines and only liked to post on the bulletin board. In a way I feel another poster is responsible for his banning because I remember post after post misrepresenting my opinions, and my responses back to clarify seemed to annoy Mike tremendously, and he called me an asshole and locked and then deleted the thread after banning me when I called him (in PM) about his decision to lock it. In my view he was as much an asshole as I was if not more, and I was very tired of his insecurity about the board especially vis a vis this one, and I'm glad to let the whole matter lie.

To be honest, I was peeved a few days, but this was in the midst of one of the most important periods of my life, the beginning of my wife's second bone marrow transplant, which soon become the most intense series of events I've ever gone through, and AAJ banishment pales in comparison. And ultimately nothing stopped me from returning to AAJ as someone else!

Edited February 3, 2008 by jazzbo

[A Lark Ascending]

I'm trying to stay well away from commenting on the current turbulence. But I would like to make two comments:

a) I've always found John Kelman fair and reasonable. Others may have experienced a different side, but he's never been like that with me.

b) I don't know what planet I was on last year but I never even knew that Chris and John had been banned or that MG had stopped posting as a result. I remember Lon's posts about the main review section (argued strongly but hardly disruptive) but not the banning. I'd assumed all three had got bored and decided to focus elsewhere.

[EulaM]

Apropos of nothing in particular....

Love this shot of Chuck Berry, a favorite with me, as I had such an unusual and great time meeting him. He was a life saver when one of the Clovers was trying to take my mothers coat, I really think he was about to get more than a little bit physical as he had already laid his hands on me, and quite roughly, and even though he dwarfed Chuck, he had a look of panic when he turned and saw it was Chuck asking him what was going on and for him to get his hands off of me. No joke, he truly saved the day for me.

He was fun to be around and super nice to me.

That is him isn't it? He looks really healthy and good in this and younger than ever.

It says Gatemouth Brown on the guitar.

I tried to see it, but couldn't make it out, thought it said David Lee Roth, ha! I started thinking, that can't be Chuck and went back to it later as I pretty much knew for certain it could't be.

[EulaM]

I don't believe Chris or Lonson were handled fairly by John. It were as if, there's those darned trees, when we all want to see is the forest. I don't think John looks at the broader picture, too many pre-existing objects, as well as thoughts are in his field of vision and between his rationale.

I repeat: John banned Chris; Mike banned Lonson. if you want to criticize someone, at least do it for things they've done, not the doings of others.

I should have said "Moderator", or Moderators and separated the two mentioned, Chris and Lonson. I hadn't known Lonson was banned until MG let me know that was why he himself had left the board. I did know it was Mike who banned him and was surprised to learn of it, as I always knew Mike to be fair and even handed. It was then that I started following and checking back on members who hadn't shown up in a while; that a lot had gone on that I'd missed. It seemed by a lot of Johns comments on posts that Lonson and Chris had put onboard, that he was into their thoughts enough to have been part of what had happened. I think that things get too personal, that it's hard to separate a valid funtion from one's own hard held attitudes. I have to believe, just from my own perspective that there are people on sites such as these that anyone of us might not be able to stand, and wouldn't miss them one bit it they were to not post a word, but we don't hold the ban button, nor would we want to. I have no desire to ban those I disagree with. I have no desire to ban a member, one I really don't understand or care for; ones whose posts rub me the wrong way. Viva la difference.

[djbinder]

To be honest, I was peeved a few days, but this was in the midst of one of the most important periods of my life, the beginning of my wife's second bone marrow transplant, which soon become the most intense series of events I've ever gone through, and AAJ banishment pales in comparison.

Absolutely. Sometimes I think we all forget that, like them or not, whether or not we believe fair play is in action or not, they're just boards. Life is far more complicated and important, and jazzbo, I sure do hope that second bone marrow transplant yielded a positive outcome.

[djbinder]

It seemed by a lot of Johns comments on posts that Lonson and Chris had put onboard, that he was into their thoughts enough to have been part of what had happened.

John has posted, more than once, that not only does he not let personal differences color his moderation (and we can choose to believe that or not), but that he's had serious disagreements on topics with other posters who remain at AAJ to this day. I'm not sure if that proves his personal feelings were, indeed, separate in the area of Chris (he was not involved with Lonson), but it certainly lends at least some credence to it. But we can all believe what we want to, that's for sure. And we all seem to be doing just that.

I think that things get too personal, that it's hard to separate a valid funtion from one's own hard held attitudes. I have to believe, just from my own perspective that there are people on sites such as these that anyone of us might not be able to stand, and wouldn't miss them one bit it they were to not post a word, but we don't hold the ban button, nor would we want to. I have no desire to ban those I disagree with. I have no desire to ban a member, one I really don't understand or care for; ones whose posts rub me the wrong way. Viva la difference.

Absolutely. And there have been (and will, no doubt, continue to be) heated debates at AAJ. Where the policy seems to draw the line is personal insult. And while it would appear, in recent times, that the policy has not been exercised completely equitably, it's also true that things were getting so out of hand that I suspect it was difficult to do so, especially when at least two of the moderators - Mike and John - had other responsibilities at the site. That they have decided to step down when replacements can be found sounds like a good thing all around - for them as much as for those who feel they've been applying the policy with a big stick.

[7/4]

To be honest, I was peeved a few days, but this was in the midst of one of the most important periods of my life, the beginning of my wife's second bone marrow transplant, which soon become the most intense series of events I've ever gone through, and AAJ banishment pales in comparison.

Absolutely. Sometimes I think we all forget that, like them or not, whether or not we believe fair play is in action or not, they're just boards. Life is far more complicated and important, and jazzbo, I sure do hope that second bone marrow transplant yielded a positive outcome.

Quick now Dave, check the ECM Yahoo grp to see if there's any action from Monica lately...maybe argue with Royd a bit...

[EulaM]

At this time, there's a whole lot of rawness to my emotions and my attitude as well. I've so much on my plate, moving and all that goes with it, a legal hassle, and as you know, these things are, or can be a pain, and talk about pain, my foot is looking as though I've been bitten by a brown recluse from my ankle, back of my heel down to my toes are terribly inflamed, red, purple and black, and strutted out swollen, however, I thought this started out with a minor injury, now I'm not so sure, but if things don't improve within the next few days, it looks as though I'm going to have to head down to UCLA, which is over a thousand miles away and I'm hoping that this will clear itself up with the treatments at hand.

When you say, in so many words; there's more to life than these web sites, that's more than true. When they become a mood changing distraction then it's hardly worth it, but then there are lots of members who make these places interesting, informative and fun, so there's trade off's I suppose, ones that oftentimes make it worth the hassle.

Edited February 3, 2008 by EulaM

[djbinder]

To be honest, I was peeved a few days, but this was in the midst of one of the most important periods of my life, the beginning of my wife's second bone marrow transplant, which soon become the most intense series of events I've ever gone through, and AAJ banishment pales in comparison.

Absolutely. Sometimes I think we all forget that, like them or not, whether or not we believe fair play is in action or not, they're just boards. Life is far more complicated and important, and jazzbo, I sure do hope that second bone marrow transplant yielded a positive outcome.

Quick now Dave, check the ECM Yahoo grp to see if there's any action from Monica lately...maybe argue with Royd a bit...

I'm not being argumentative ("yes you are," "no I'm not!" ). Just suggesting that jazzbo's post really kind of puts things in perspective. And that includes Royd...!

[djbinder]

When you say, in so many words; there's more to life than these web sites, that's more than true. When they become a mood changing distraction then it's hardly worth it, but then there are lots of members who make these places interesting, informative and fun, so there's trade off's I suppose, ones that oftentimes make it worth the hassle.

I'm not suggesting boards aren't important places. I am suggesting that sometimes we become so immersed in them that we lose perspective. Lord knows I have....

And are you serious about being bitten by a brown recluse? Holy crap - that's serious. One reason I'm glad not to live somewhere that poisonous critters are common.....I hope that you get that attended to.....is there nowhere closer that can deal with something like this?

Edited February 3, 2008 by djbinder

[EulaM]

When you say, in so many words; there's more to life than these web sites, that's more than true. When they become a mood changing distraction then it's hardly worth it, but then there are lots of members who make these places interesting, informative and fun, so there's trade off's I suppose, ones that oftentimes make it worth the hassle.

I'm not suggesting boards aren't important places. I am suggesting that sometimes we become so immersed in them that we lose perspective. Lord knows I have....

And are you serious about being bitten by a brown recluse? Holy crap - that's serious. One reason I'm glad not to live somewhere that poisonous critters are common.....I hope that you get that attended to.....is there nowhere closer that can deal with something like this?

I've been bitten by one before and it was more than a little bit serious, my whole leg from below the knee felt like hamburger and it was impossible to put any weight on it without suffering excruiating pain. It was flaming red, my whole leg up to my knee, with a black round spot where the bite was on the side of my calf, I mean totally black. I know how to treat it. In three days with the earlier bite, the redness was gone and in no time at all the black spot had cleared up. I cured the bite up before myself with Penicillin G and DMSO, this time I'm using DMSO and OxyTet, a strong injectible tetracycline antibiotic. With DMSO you can use some injectibles topically. It works wonders. Penicillin G mixed with DMSO worked perfectly, but they've taken it off the market as it was for children and they've come up with a medication which is stronger which they say works better on infants, toddlers and others who are young.

EDIT ADDITION" There are closer places, but my experiences here have been life threatening and not too professional on a few doctors and nurses parts. I've had wonderful doctors here, and wonderful nurses, then there's the other side of the story which has been very dangerous, and I'm still going through problems doctors and nurses have caused, and I mean it's been serious.

The last time I had bone infection in my foot, I had to point out the bone area that was affected in the X-Rays, not one of the so called top orthopaedic/sports doctors could spot it. My doctor down in Santa Monica at St. Johns Doctor Boeck said any first year intern could have picked it up. Then there was the grimacing and the fact that even with gloves he was repulsed by my foot, he was turning his face sideaways, curling up his lip and only touching my foot with one gloved finger, and then only with the tip. There was no odor from it whatsoever, no excretement, just an area that looked like a severe wound, just a deep hole. He said it was beyond him he didn't have the knowledge to work on it. He was so unprofessional that I was stunned by his actions.

There's other cases in Bend at St. Charles Medical Center, where I've actually been injured by a doctor, this while in the hospital. He wasn't even my doctor, so I feel I'm taking my life in my hands here and I'm totally comfortable with the treatment available at St. John's and at UCLA in Southern California. Those two hospitals and their doctors are the best, and you know, they are in one of the higher rent districts in the country, and they, as well as the doctors were so much less expensive, you wouldn't believe it. Central Oregon, well, there's good and their's bad, and I've seen both, but unfortunately, I've seen the extremes in tha later. Their actions are still at play as far as my overall health goes.

Edited February 3, 2008 by EulaM

[jazzbo]

To be honest, I was peeved a few days, but this was in the midst of one of the most important periods of my life, the beginning of my wife's second bone marrow transplant, which soon become the most intense series of events I've ever gone through, and AAJ banishment pales in comparison.

Absolutely. Sometimes I think we all forget that, like them or not, whether or not we believe fair play is in action or not, they're just boards. Life is far more complicated and important, and jazzbo, I sure do hope that second bone marrow transplant yielded a positive outcome.

Well, thanks for your wish. It didn't. This was an unrelated donor transplant with a one in three chance of success, a one in three chance of immediate disaster, and a one in three chance of chronic host vs graft disease and death within one to three years.

What happened was a disaster. The donor cells attacked her lungs and did so much damage that she was unable to breathe on her own. On October 8 I lost her.

The MDS won. . . I had been so convinced that we would beat the MDS as we had beaten (sort of I guess) the lymphoma. I miss her very much.

[djbinder]

I've been bitten by one before and it was more tha a little bit serious, my whole leg from below the knee felt like hamburger and it was impossible to put any weight on it without suffering excruiating pain. It was flaming red, my whole leg up to my knee, with a black round spot where the bite was on the side of my calf, I mean totally black. I know how to treat it. In three days with the earlier bite, the redness was gone and in no time at all the black spot had cleared up. I cured the bite up before myself with Penicillin G and DMSO, this time I'm using DMSO and OxyTet, a strong injectible tetracycline antibiotic. With DMSO you can use some injectibles topically. It works wonders. Penicillin G mixed with DMSO worked perfectly, but they've taken it off the market as it was for children and they've come up with a medication which is stronger which they say works better on infants, toddlers and others who are young.

Well, I'm glad you have it under control. My only knowledge of them comes from documentaries and what I've read, but they're seriously (extremely seriously) nasty critters - perhaps more so than Black Widows because sometimes (correct me if I'm wrong) you aren't aware that you've been bitten immediately...and unless you have treatments on hand like you do, the damage can sometimes be irreversible....is that right?

But it does sound like you've got what you need to take care of it, which is a relief. I guess these are the kinds of things you really have to think about when you're distanced from an urban center.

Feel better!

[A Lark Ascending]

On October 8 I lost her.

Really sorry to read that, Lon. Puts all these board squabbles right into perspective. I hope you're finding some peace.

[Aggie87]

To be honest, I was peeved a few days, but this was in the midst of one of the most important periods of my life, the beginning of my wife's second bone marrow transplant, which soon become the most intense series of events I've ever gone through, and AAJ banishment pales in comparison.

Absolutely. Sometimes I think we all forget that, like them or not, whether or not we believe fair play is in action or not, they're just boards. Life is far more complicated and important, and jazzbo, I sure do hope that second bone marrow transplant yielded a positive outcome.

Well, thanks for your wish. It didn't. This was an unrelated donor transplant with a one in three chance of success, a one in three chance of immediate disaster, and a one in three chance of chronic host vs graft disease and death within one to three years.

What happened was a disaster. The donor cells attacked her lungs and did so much damage that she was unable to breathe on her own. On October 8 I lost her.

The MDS won. . . I had been so convinced that we would beat the MDS as we had beaten (sort of I guess) the lymphoma. I miss her very much.

I'm sorry, Lon. It has been obvious over the years how much you loved her, and how much she meant to you. I have no doubt that carried her through her battle as much as anything else.

[EulaM]

When you say, in so many words; there's more to life than these web sites, that's more than true. When they become a mood changing distraction then it's hardly worth it, but then there are lots of members who make these places interesting, informative and fun, so there's trade off's I suppose, ones that oftentimes make it worth the hassle.

I'm not suggesting boards aren't important places. I am suggesting that sometimes we become so immersed in them that we lose perspective. Lord knows I have....

And are you serious about being bitten by a brown recluse? Holy crap - that's serious. One reason I'm glad not to live somewhere that poisonous critters are common.....I hope that you get that attended to.....is there nowhere closer that can deal with something like this?

I've been bitten by one before and it was more tha a little bit serious, my whole leg from below the knee felt like hamburger and it was impossible to put any weight on it without suffering excruiating pain. It was flaming red, my whole leg up to my knee, with a black round spot where the bite was on the side of my calf, I mean totally black. I know how to treat it. In three days with the earlier bite, the redness was gone and in no time at all the black spot had cleared up. I cured the bite up before myself with Penicillin G and DMSO, this time I'm using DMSO and OxyTet, a strong injectible tetracycline antibiotic. With DMSO you can use some injectibles topically. It works wonders. Penicillin G mixed with DMSO worked perfectly, but they've taken it off the market as it was for children and they've come up with a medication which is stronger which they say works better on infants, toddlers and others who are young.

EDIT: I'd added onto this post, but I must have hit a wrong button, will explain it later If I ever get back to it. But yes, I feel I need to go elsewhere for treatment due to how doctors and our hospitals staff have done things in the past. I've had some wonderful doctors and nurses here, but have had others do permanent damage. Serious damage, where I couldn't walk for five years without falling, so no, I'm not going to trust my health to St. Charles or any doctors up here who deal with this sort of thing. My good doctors were surgeons and this doesn't warrant their type of skill, not so far, ha.

Edited February 3, 2008 by EulaM

[jazzbo]

Thanks B, and E, and all (I don't want to keep posting about this).

I've gotten through the last four months with the help of many friends, at hand and online, and I've consoled myself somewhat with the fact that we did everything possible to combat the diseases, and we were able to do it all together because of the wonderful benefits I've had in 25 years of state government service and hadn't squandered.

Also, we always talked through everything and we knew how we felt about each other and expressed it. Because of the danger we even forced ourselves to talk extensively about what would happen if the disease won and I know exactly what she would want me to do. Which includes finding someone else to share my life with.

But it's very hard, she was the centerpiece of my life. I even have postponed a retirement we were both looking forward to because I can't look into the future to a retirement without her yet. The shock has worn off and there's real pain to wade through. I'm doing alright overall, time will be my friend.

Edited February 3, 2008 by jazzbo

[djbinder]

Well, thanks for your wish. It didn't. This was an unrelated donor transplant with a one in three chance of success, a one in three chance of immediate disaster, and a one in three chance of chronic host vs graft disease and death within one to three years.

Ah, jesus man, I'm so sorry to hear that. I can't even imagine going through that kind of loss.

What happened was a disaster. The donor cells attacked her lungs and did so much damage that she was unable to breathe on her own. On October 8 I lost her.

Again, my sincere condolences...I hope, in time, you'll find some peace. One never gets over these things, but hopefully time will at least make it a little easier to cope.

The MDS won. . . I had been so convinced that we would beat the MDS as we had beaten (sort of I guess) the lymphoma. I miss her very much.

I have a friend whose wife just went through a trying time with cancer. Ultimately, it wasn't the cancer that nearly killed her, it was the treatment. Thankfully, they were able to deal with that (though she was absolutely on death's door more than once in the past 8 months) and she's now cancer free and soon may be going back to work. Thankfully there are stories with happy endings, but I'm just so sorry that wasn't the case with you. I'm sure you must miss her every moment at this point; again, hopefully time will at least make it a little easier to cope. Again, I'm just so sorry to hear this - and am frankly really sorry I even brought it up, but I didn't know.

[GA Russell]

Lon, I'm very sorry that your wife died. I didn't know. I'll say a prayer for her tonight.

[Guest Bill Barton]

...I've gotten through the last four months with the help of many friends, at hand and online, and I've consoled myself somewhat with the fact that we did everything possible to combat the diseases, and we were able to do it all together because of the wonderful benefits I've had in 25 years of state government service and hadn't squandered.

Also, we always talked through everything and we knew how we felt about each other and expressed it. Because of the danger we even forced ourselves to talk extensively about what would happen if the disease won and I know exactly what she would want me to do. Which includes finding someone else to share my life with.

But it's very hard, she was the centerpiece of my life. I even have postponed a retirement we were both looking forward to because I can't look into the future to a retirement without her yet. The shock has worn off and there's real pain to wade through. I'm doing alright overall, time will be my friend.

My sincere condolences to you. I'll be focusing some positive thoughts your way this Sunday afternoon.

_____

And my two cents worth on the ongoing discussion here:

For goodness sakes, it's a freaking discussion board on the Internet not international diplomacy (or lack thereof). Let it go and move on.

Sunday rant now closed.