Tim McG Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 (edited) Dan and Good Speak, can you guys keep the name calling and politics out of it? It takes away from both of your arguments. Speak to Dan, WB3...not my doing. In my opinion there is a medium here. I live in the bay area and obviously Bonds took juice after 2000. Before that even when he was with the Pirates he was the best hitter I ever saw, I am an A's fan and I use to share season tickets to just to see Barry hit, since 93 you were in the presence of greatness. First ballot HOF in my opinion. Again as a Bay Area baseball fan my team the Oakland A's in 88 and early 2000's were the poster child for roids with Jose, McGwire, Jason and Miggy. I will say this though that we have taken a lot of shit about Barry that wasn't fair in that he was the poster child for roids when you we know he wasn't the only one using. Anybody that singled out Barry wasn't looking at the real problem and how wide spread the usage was in the league. Sellig, the Labor union, the owners, writers and fans all looked the other way. Singling out certain individuals might make you feel good so you can pass blame and have hate directed on but its living in denial. First of all, I agree Bonds took a lot of needless bullshit from the media lynch mob regarding the use of steroids [as if he was the only one (allegedly) using the stuff]. The MLB and it's owners did in fact turn a blind eye. Why that is all Bonds' fault is beyond me. However, the fact he was dirty remains to be proved. Hat size and body bulk do not equate to anything more than pure speculation. He was a [edit] three time MVP and four time Gold Glove winner [totalling seven awards; 4 for fielding] before that alleged steroids season and anyone still laboring under the delusion that steroids make you see the ball better and hit HRs is an idiot. Make no mistake. Of all the convicted and assumed steroids users in and out of the MLB...none hit as many HRs nor were walked as many times as Bonds was. Edited May 18, 2009 by GoodSpeak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papsrus Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 So you're still kind of weighing the pros and cons here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Good things you guys aren't in the same room. Spit would be flying in all directions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quincy Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 (edited) All their quoting of each other is killing my crackberry phone I'm waiting for the post where the quoting doesn't fit on one computer screen page. I can't imagine trying to follow this on my iPod Touch. Uh, not that I'm reading it mind you, I'm just guessing we've been through this already. Edited May 19, 2009 by Quincy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 This is the biggest stupidest non-issue that the media and/or government has ever addressed. No one cares. Let's arrest opera singers for taking a sinus pill before they sing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vajerzy Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 I wouldn't be offended if you guys took this to a chat room. Or- pick a place in the midwest that you both can fly relatively cheap and hang out and discuss- perhaps St. Louis and Chicago- and take in some games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 At the cost of about ninety minutes of my life, I've shorn this thread of all the name-calling I could see (about six pages worth out of a former total of forty-four), plus some extraneous stuff, and re-opened it. If in doing so I've whacked a few things I shouldn't have, so be it -- the gist of the arguments (plus a lot of husk) remains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papsrus Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Thanks Larry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalupa Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Fan starts 'Vote for Manny' site http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?i...LL415=100000000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim McG Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Fan starts 'Vote for Manny' site http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?i...LL415=100000000 Figures. No Giants fan would stoop so low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalupa Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Torre weighs in.... http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4215510 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulstation1 Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Add Sammy to the list if you didn't already Why do the just release Rodriguez and Sosa's names only? Release the other 100 plus names Not that it really matters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldB3 Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Add Sammy to the list if you didn't already Why do the just release Rodriguez and Sosa's names only? Release the other 100 plus names Not that it really matters I think if your baseball and Selig its wise to limit the release of the names to a trickle. I think the whole list would overwhelm enough people to say screw it I will never support baseball again. I also imagine there are are some big market player names on there which would also effect marketing. While there are several young future superstars like Morneau and Mauer who play for the Twins who are clean Joe Six Pack may just say well if Big Pappi is on the list then screw them all (not saying Big Pappi is on it, just throwing it out there) who the hell is Monreau? Screw em all. As for Sammy being on the list, well no duh. Worst part about Sammy is that he came up as a five tool player, great in the field, could steal a base hit for average but he decided to become just a home run hitter. Sadly the state of the game is that hitting 50-60 jacks gets your more money then stealing bases, hitting for average, assists and moving the runner over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 As for Sammy being on the list, well no duh. Worst part about Sammy is that he came up as a five tool player, great in the field, could steal a base hit for average but he decided to become just a home run hitter. Sadly the state of the game is that hitting 50-60 jacks gets your more money then stealing bases, hitting for average, assists and moving the runner over. Sammy Sosa wasn't on my radar when he was coming up (it wasn't easy then to have any real knowledge about prospects, pre-Internet) but there is nothing whatsoever in his stats to say that he was a five-tool player. One of those five tools is hitting for power, and he didn't do it. Neither did he hit for average in the minors - in no full season in his minor league career did he hit above .285. Its true he started in the minors at a young age, so he was always young for the leagues he played in but still ... there's nothing that made Sosa a "five tool" player. He could run a little, I assume his defense was considered decent. As for your statement about how the game values 50-60 jacks well guess what - that has been the case since Babe Ruth and has never changed. The only thing that has changed is the absolute size of the salaries. The value of hitting "taters" has always exceeded the value of stealing bases or hitting for average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldB3 Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 The value of hitting "taters" has always exceeded the value of stealing bases or hitting for average. So you don't think the game has suffered from it and the waiting for the 3 run homer? I never saw him play and he never hit 70 HRs but most people consider Willie Mays the best ever. You should read Juicing the Game by Howard Bryant. He mentions the demise of Sosa not caring about anything but focusing on home runs. Obviously Cancesco is Sosa to the extreme. If I could vote for the HOF I would never vote for McGuire. Not becuse he roided but because he only did one thing well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BERIGAN Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 as several wise men said... "Home run hitters drive Cadillacs. Singles hitters drive Fords." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 The value of hitting "taters" has always exceeded the value of stealing bases or hitting for average. So you don't think the game has suffered from it and the waiting for the 3 run homer? I never saw him play and he never hit 70 HRs but most people consider Willie Mays the best ever. You should read Juicing the Game by Howard Bryant. He mentions the demise of Sosa not caring about anything but focusing on home runs. Obviously Cancesco is Sosa to the extreme. If I could vote for the HOF I would never vote for McGuire. Not becuse he roided but because he only did one thing well. Earl Weaver played for the three-run homer in the sixties and seventies. Was the game suffering then? If you're implication is that Sosa might have been Mays if only .... well, thanks for the chuckle. Sosa vs McGuire in the Hall used to be an interesting question, as they were both one-dimensional players, very good at that one dimension. Up until this week, it looked like the difference was that one had a very good lawyer and one had a very bad lawyer. McGuire's legal advice was that he could not speak about the past without risks to himself, his friends and family, leaving the inevitable supposition that he did in fact use steroids and could not discuss it under oath without immunity. Sosa's lawyer was great, if you appreciate the crafting of a statement that sounded good but had more holes in it than swiss cheese. "I never injected myself or had anyone inject me" - yeah but there are such things as oral steroids, Sammy. "I never violated the laws of the U.S. or the Dominican" - yeah but Sammy, the Dominican Republic never outlawed steroids, they can be bought easily anywhere. So if you used oral steroids while in the Dominican, than you've managed to be truthful to Congress while denying that you cheated. Brilliant. Until now with this report. I could have seen Sammy getting into the Hall until this positive test came out. Now there's no way in hell for either one of them. And that's totally fine by me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papsrus Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 What do you make of this: NEW YORK - Jose Canseco plans to file a class-action lawsuit against Major League Baseball and the players’ association, saying he’s been ostracized for going public with tales of steroids use in the sport. Canseco said Wednesday that he has discussed the suit with lawyers and intends to enlist Sammy Sosa and Rafael Palmeiro to join in the suit. Canseco said the basis of the suit would be “lost wages — in some cases, defamation of character.” “Because I used steroids and I came out with a book, I was kicked out of the game, but I have not been inducted into the Hall of Fame,” Canseco said in a telephone interview. Didn't he write the book after he was out of the game? If so, what lost wages? Defamation of character? You write a book, expect feedback. And the Hall? He's suing in part to get into the Hall of Fame? That's a new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.D. Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Earl Weaver played for the three-run homer in the sixties and seventies. Was the game suffering then? "Pitching, defense and three-run homers"! Actually, though I preferred the brand of baseball played in the '60s and '70s, one could argue that, in terms of attendance and revenue, the game was suffering then. When I was growing up in Chicago area (late '60s-early '70s), teams did well to sell one million tickets a year, and late-season crowds of 1,000 or less were not unusual. Very few games were broadcast nationally ("game of the week" on Saturday was it). Further, the whole memorabilia/souvenir silliness (IMO) hadn't exploded. Seems like MLB embraced "modern marketing techniques" starting in the early '80s, and attendance subsequently exploded. The aging of the baby boomers may have had something to do with it, as well... Re. Sosa, I can only laugh. Anyone who's surprised by Sammy testing positive must have spent a couple of decades on Venus or somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 I think its funny that Canseco is filing as a "class action" and is recruiting Palmiero and Sosa to join the claim, since I guess they were blackballed too. Of course the fact that he was 37 when no one would sign him, hadn't played a full season since he was 33 and the few skills he had as a ballplayer had markedly declined doesn't mean it was a rational decision by GMs, in fact it must have been a conspiracy to deny him the ability to make a living. Proof that lawyers will take on any client if they can be convinced there is a pot of gold at the end, since we know Canseco can't pay anyone their fee up front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldB3 Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) Earl Weaver played for the three-run homer in the sixties and seventies. Was the game suffering then? "Pitching, defense and three-run homers"! thats what I was getting at. less focus on the fundamentals now. You never saw a Earl Weaver team lack fundamentals. Those early 3 peat Oakland A's teams and early 70's Reds teams did everything right. Take the extra base, fielding the position, getting the runner over, get the run home with an out instead of taking the 3rd strike because your waiting for your pitch to drive out of the park, knowing what every option you have available for the situation. Players now just focus on getting power numbers and the bigger pay check. Or maybe I am just getting a bad brand of ball in my area. Edited June 18, 2009 by WorldB3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quincy Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Earl Weaver played for the three-run homer in the sixties and seventies. Was the game suffering then? "Pitching, defense and three-run homers"! Actually, though I preferred the brand of baseball played in the '60s and '70s, one could argue that, in terms of attendance and revenue, the game was suffering then. I never thought I'd say this but I miss the lack of Astroturf in the NL (or at KC), and maybe even a few of the cookie cutter parks. The type of ball they played at Houston (uh, when they were good, which wasn't often) and the Whiteyball era in STL was exciting stuff. Speed to burn on the basepaths & defense, moving the runners, all because there weren't enough players who were strong enough to hit the ball over the wall. Granted I wouldn't want every park to play on plastic (hell, not even 3/4s), or every team to be full of rabbits, but it was fun era (in the NL especially). I guess there are still small ball teams around, and the new found emphasis on defense by some teams as a way to improve pitching (Detroit, Texas) is good to see, I'm just having a nostalgic moment. The thing that still causes me to go "huh?" is whenever I realize that all the turf is in the AL, whereas when I was a kid the majority was in the NL (STL, CIN, PIT, PHI, HOU...) With the Heftydome closing in MIN there goes another plastic park. I'll try not to get weepy-eyed over its loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.D. Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) Earl Weaver played for the three-run homer in the sixties and seventies. Was the game suffering then? "Pitching, defense and three-run homers"! thats what I was getting at. Some of those Oriole teams were badass. One of my earliest baseball memories is the 1966 World Series mega-upset sweep of the Dodgers. Frank and Brooks Robinson, Boog Powell, Jim Palmer, Dave McNally,... (Just in case anyone didn't recognize it, my above quote is a famous one from Earl Weaver re. the secret of winning.) The Os of the Weaver era had a lot of excellent defensive players: Paul Blair, B. Robinson, Mark Belanger, Bobby Grich,... Edited June 18, 2009 by T.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) Not to rub salt in Dan's wounds, but... Edited July 30, 2009 by Noj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Not to rub salt in Dan's wounds, but... There is no salt to be rubbed, thanks anyway, Jon. Number one, he tested positive in 2003. There is no evidence he used in 2004 and beyond, as he has never been penalized for a positive test. Number two, they must have been the super-slow-acting steroids since they didn't kick in until Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS. Seriously though, from that Times article: In 2007, Ortiz said that he used to buy a protein shake in the Dominican Republic when he was younger and did not know if it contained a performance-enhancing drug. “I don’t do that anymore because they don’t have the approval for that here, so I know that, so I’m off buying things at the GNC back in the Dominican Republic,” Ortiz told The Boston Herald. He added: “I don’t know if I drank something in my youth, not knowing it.” Ortiz has acknowledged the possibility of inadvertent use. He's also become one of the toughest of all players in advocating a much more intensive testing program with a full year penalty for a single positive test. That doesn't sound like a guy who used for a long time. So, bottom line: He tested positive in 2003. They didn't win in 2003 either. As for Manny, I don't give a shit. He's your problem now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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