Charles Gayle

[MomsMobley]

I lucked into copies of two FMPs recently-- Berlin Movement For Future Years and Abiding Variations. Listening to the former my first though was "what's the point, really? Is there a point to this?" but as the CD went on I began to hear something in it, it began to hold together. So I think immersion in his longer, fiery improvisations is required to get the gist. I have no doubt there's something technical happening there, but perhaps his music is the greatest embodiment of Ayler's ideas about this music being more about sound and shape than notes and harmony (I can't track down the quote-- and I think it may have been Donald, actually, who said this). Also, Michael Wimberly and Michael Vattel are kind of weird, insular players. A very unique group when you listen hard.

I think there's A LOT more to those Gayle sessions than first appears-- and I had a similar reaction at first; the received summary of early Gayle and some of his statements contributed to trying pigeonhole Gayle as some mere blowtorch, which is far far FAR from the case. There are Gayle piano outings, btw, that definitely betray some classical training-- maybe as a kid, maybe more-- who knows, but there are passages that suggest he's thinking of Chopin in addition to Cecil. The Bruckner comparison made earlier remains apt, btw, despite differences between symphonic composition and trio improv (forget 'graphic score' gimmicky, even if some people do occasionally do it well, cf. Brotzmann "Alarm" (but very rarely the Chicago Tentet etc, who's cacophony alternating w/ small groupings is predictable & often trite.)

Michael Wimberly is no slouch btw--

http://www.drummagazine.com/hand-drum/post/michael-wimberly-master-of-global-grooves/

nor Vattel Cherry--

http://www.activebass.com/ar450--Vattel-Cherry

Not pointing fingers but that people pay lip service to say Mats Gustaffson and can there yet be Charles Gayle skeptics is uttterly laughable (unless there are extra musical considerations involved, i.e. dragged about Charles' evangelism).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld4Nrjh9Sek

Edited November 9, 2014 by MomsMobley

[David Ayers]

...some classical training...Chopin...

Faint praise.

[MomsMobley]

...some classical training...Chopin...

Faint praise.

^^^^ Ah, a 'sophisticate'! Almost suggested Godowsky/Chopin but that seems unlikely, if not impossible.

We'll get to the possible/probable Scriabin influence anon.

[Leeway]

I'm not sure I get your reference to Mats Gustafsson, but after thinking about it, it seems to me that Mats and Gayle have more in common than they have differences. They are both renowned for their fiery playing, but they also like to change up their instrumentation and their sound, presenting different aspects of their music, from small to large ensembles.

And yet, I've seen both in concert multiple times, and except for the ability to blow hard, I don't get any sense of a deeper similarity in how they actually sound or play. One has not recalled the other to my ears when I've heard them. Maybe that's something to listen for.

[MomsMobley]

I'm not sure I get your reference to Mats Gustafsson, but after thinking about it, it seems to me that Mats and Gayle have more in common than they have differences. They are both renowned for their fiery playing, but they also like to change up their instrumentation and their sound, presenting different aspects of their music, from small to large ensembles.

And yet, I've seen both in concert multiple times, and except for the ability to blow hard, I don't get any sense of a deeper similarity in how they actually sound or play. One has not recalled the other to my ears when I've heard them. Maybe that's something to listen for.

Lee, only making 'comparison' because for people with interest, Mats is generally well-praised w/o qualification or smirks; he's rarely my bag but OK, he fills his roles, the duo with Brotzmann is bracing when you want a brace etc.

The frequent patronizing of Gayle + pigeonholing as mere hard blower is taxonomically incorrect &/or reflective of some other issues on part of the 'listening artist' (I use the term very loosely in some cases).

Check out the solo live in Moscow 2003, "No Bill" for some his most exceptional piano playing.

Now if someone wants to argue Gayle sucks or is tiresome on ALL his instruments, all contexts... that'd be an odd take but at least a consistent, synoptic one.

[David Ayers]

Influence with regard to procedure, a resemblance evident only to analysis, or regarding imitation in passing, which amounts to not much and is an odd endorsement.

[colinmce]

One of the things the classic Gayle trio music reminds me of in a roundabout way is another group led by an outsider (or hidden insider?) who also exploded "onto" the scene in 1993: Joe Maneri. Though technically their music has very little in common, I almost consider Gayle-- especially in that context-- as kind of his own thing divorced from the Fire Music/Energy Music lineage, just as Joe Maneri and his 1993(+) quartet fall outside the boundaries of any truly established style or lineage. I hear the same singularity and certainly the same insularity. Michael Wimberly and Vattel Cherry don't get around a whole lot, and neither do Randy Peterson or John Lockwood. But in those groups they play on a rarified plane. They own the worlds that Gayle and Maneri create and when you hear William Parker or Rashied Ali, or Cecil McBee in their place the music is very, very different for it.

[MomsMobley]

Have ya'll heard the Bang Sirone Ensemble side on Silkheart with Gayle (on alto & tenor) and Tyshawn Sorey on tubs?

VERY interesting, not least to hear Charles hangs, enlivens in idioms the reductionists imply he couldn't.

Can't find any youtube clips but it's an excellent date.

Gayle & Papa Joe together would have been a terrific multi-instrumental meeting, actually, unfortunate never happened, parallel worlds etc, though obviously Mat & William Parker played together often.

Thing about Gayle also that should be emphasized is he's been back for 25 years now with a pretty diverse discography-- the solo sides as powerful in their ways as the trios/quartets etc...

... And as the beginnings of this thread indicates, it's entirely possible some folks who wrote off early Gayle as one dimensional scorcher (he wasn't but I understand the impression) would come around to his various other guises, "Streets" included (whose character, whether one indulges him or not, is utterly fascinating to consider, like where did Charles get that idea-- let alone the gumption to make it 'jazz' (& not 'jazz') theater?)

Edited November 10, 2014 by MomsMobley

[clifford_thornton]

Had an interesting convo about Streets - part of it, I think, is in the NYCJR from May or June.

Listened to some of the 1993 releases with Wimberly, Parker and Vattel Cherry last night. Not one dimensional but still not easy for me to crack.

[Leeway]

"Streets" rather bombed at last year's Vision Fest. Even an audience that feeds on weird was weirded out. Beyond that, it did nothing for the music, except make his bass playing even less palatable, since Streets seemed to have an affinity for the bass. It might be good psychodrama though; it seemed like anything might happen.

[clifford_thornton]

I was there and enjoyed myself. His bass playing wasn't happening; I much prefer his piano or reeds playing.

[Leeway]

IIRC, the Streets thing took up a lot of the allotted time, it may even have run over, and for me just came off as tedious after the initial buzz from his appearance. I thought it would be cool, but it turned out not so. At least we agree that the bass playing wasn't happening; unfortunately, it overshadowed much of that set. Glad you enjoyed it.

[Д.Д.]

I just discovered  - any to my surprise, enjoyed greatly - this 1965(!) trio session of Gayle, Buell Neidlinger and John Bergamo, released in 2015 on Neidlinger's K2B2 Records as "Gayle Force". Apparently, this is the earliest recorded evidence of Gayle. Up to now, I've disliked Gayle, thought he was absolutely one-dimensional and boring - but this session made me reconsider. His playing (as well as Neidlinger's and Bergamo's) is excellent. Confidently relaxed, powerful and varied; nice tenor sound too. Not too many people were playing like this in 1965!   

It's on Spotify too: 

 

 

 

[colinmce]

That's an awesome disc, just about as close as we can get to imagining the not-to-be ESP album.

He seems to be a controversial player but I don't find him boring in the least. At his best he's among the most riveting musicians I've ever heard. Just my opinion though. 

 

[Rabshakeh]

Are there other Gayle records from the 1960s? Wikipedia denies everything.

[colinmce]

15 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

Are there other Gayle records from the 1960s? Wikipedia denies everything.

There are not. After this (with the exception of Rising Tones Cross) the next most recent Gayle recording I know of is the 1987 duo with William Parker on the Centering box. Then in 1988 he begins his recording career. 

I once read a news article about him that I think was from the 1970s, but I'm not able to turn it up right now. It had a lot of background about his involvement in music and education in the Buffalo area in the 60s and 70s, giving you a sense of what he was up to and who he was playing with (I think he even had a semi-steady group for a time), but it seems most of that is lost to the ether.

On 4/12/2012 at 6:18 PM, AllenLowe said:

to me, Gayle's got something really special. Just a sound, and a way in that's all his.

This is just a layman's theory that I have never put to the test (and honestly I don't know that I'm capable of doing it), but I've come to feel that Gayle may be the only saxophonist in this idiom that does not have a basis in either late Coltrane or Ayler-- I am trying to think of another that I can't at least tangentially link to those streams and I'm coming up short (Arthur Doyle's approach is obviously quite sui generis but I do hear a lot of 1966/67 Coltrane there).

[JSngry]

18 hours ago, Д.Д. said:

I just discovered  - any to my surprise, enjoyed greatly - this 1965(!) trio session of Gayle, Buell Neidlinger and John Bergamo, released in 2015 on Neidlinger's K2B2 Records as "Gayle Force". Apparently, this is the earliest recorded evidence of Gayle. Up to now, I've disliked Gayle, thought he was absolutely one-dimensional and boring - but this session made me reconsider. His playing (as well as Neidlinger's and Bergamo's) is excellent. Confidently relaxed, powerful and varied; nice tenor sound too. Not too many people were playing like this in 1965!   

It's on Spotify too: 

 

 

 

Thanks for calling this out, listening now!

If this is indeed 1965. I hear an early, skilled (and personal) adapter to Ayler's saxophone techniques and also to Gilmore's organizational strategies. An invigorating listen, to be sure!

Where was this recorded, and what else was Gayle doing at that time/place? 

[paulfromcamden]

Just wondering out loud if anyone knows how Charles is doing and if he's playing at the moment?

[mjazzg]

Never been keen on Gayle since I learnt of his homophobia which I believe was in evidence at one of his Oto gigs as well as well documented elsewhere.

But that's just me. No doubt other musicians I listen to have abhorrent views too but maybe not as part of their performances.

As you were with the discussion of his music

[colinmce]

3 hours ago, paulfromcamden said:

Just wondering out loud if anyone knows how Charles is doing and if he's playing at the moment?

Unsure of his health, but I don’t think he’s played for several years now. The last recording I know of is from Café Oto in 2017. 

Edited June 17, 2023 by colinmce

[Д.Д.]

6 hours ago, JSngry said:

Thanks for calling this out, listening now!

If this is indeed 1965. I hear an early, skilled (and personal) adapter to Ayler's saxophone techniques and also to Gilmore's organizational strategies. An invigorating listen, to be sure!

Where was this recorded, and what else was Gayle doing at that time/place? 

According to Neidlinger, this was recorded in John Bergamo's living room in Buffalo, NY where all three were based at the time. Here is a quote from Neidlinger's 2003 interview (i.e. way before the "Gayle Force" release):

When I was in Buffalo I had a group with Andrew White and also Charles Gayle. I discovered [Gayle] in Buffalo at that time; he was pushing televisions around the Westinghouse factory. He came down to a session I used to have at a little coffee shop and sat in, and that was the end of my friendship with Andrew White, who just detested him.

AAJ: What year was that?

BN: It was probably late ’62; [Gayle] wasn’t working as a musician because nobody wanted anybody to play like that. I thought he was great... 

     

[Rabshakeh]

3 hours ago, mjazzg said:

Never been keen on Gayle since I learnt of his homophobia which I believe was in evidence at one of his Oto gigs as well as well documented elsewhere.

But that's just me. No doubt other musicians I listen to have abhorrent views too but maybe not as part of their performances.

As you were with the discussion of his music

Agreed.

I quite enjoy Gayle's music. He is an interesting part of jazz history. 

I agree with you on his mid-gig lectures. They should not have been tolerated as they were.  Gayle is not the only one, though, and the willingness to tolerate this stuff (not just outspoken homophobia) has not gone away. 

[JSngry]

29 minutes ago, Д.Д. said:

According to Neidlinger, this was recorded in John Bergamo's living room in Buffalo, NY where all three were based at the time. Here is a quote from Neidlinger's 2003 interview (i.e. way before the "Gayle Force" release):

When I was in Buffalo I had a group with Andrew White and also Charles Gayle. I discovered [Gayle] in Buffalo at that time; he was pushing televisions around the Westinghouse factory. He came down to a session I used to have at a little coffee shop and sat in, and that was the end of my friendship with Andrew White, who just detested him.

AAJ: What year was that?

BN: It was probably late ’62; [Gayle] wasn’t working as a musician because nobody wanted anybody to play like that. I thought he was great... 

     

Thanks, good to know that.

Westinghouse! 

[dicky]

What specifically has Charles Gayle said in performance or out that is being characterized as "homophobia" and which "should not have been tolerated "?

 

[sonnymax]

1 hour ago, dicky said:

What specifically has Charles Gayle said in performance or out that is being characterized as "homophobia" and which "should not have been tolerated "?

A simple Google search will provide you with examples.