Happy 80th to Johnny Griffin!

[Michael Weiss]

For at many years, Johnny would come back to his hometown to play for a week at the Jazz Showcase in Chicago, where he would celebrate his birthday. 4/24 was Joe Segal's birthday (he owns the Jazz Showcase). Joe Henderson also celebrated his birthday on 4/24. One year schedules and money permitted Joe Segal to book both of them. I sure hope the Showcase opens soon.

So you were there for that week?

Unfortunately it wasn't so much a two-tenor gig as it was two quartets with the same rhythm section (only paid for one, of course), but playing (the Joe Henderson Songbook) with Joe was great. We did a week at Yoshi's after Chicago.

[Larry Kart]

For at many years, Johnny would come back to his hometown to play for a week at the Jazz Showcase in Chicago, where he would celebrate his birthday. 4/24 was Joe Segal's birthday (he owns the Jazz Showcase). Joe Henderson also celebrated his birthday on 4/24. One year schedules and money permitted Joe Segal to book both of them. I sure hope the Showcase opens soon.

So you were there for that week?

Unfortunately it wasn't so much a two-tenor gig as it was two quartets with the same rhythm section (only paid for one, of course), but playing (the Joe Henderson Songbook) with Joe was great. We did a week at Yoshi's after Chicago.

I'm pretty sure I reviewed that gig, though I can't find a copy in the Tribune's archives. If I didn't review it, I know I was there because I recall how soft JH sounded next to JG when they shared the stand. And it was much more that JH was soft than that JG was loud.

[Mark Stryker]

I'm pretty sure I reviewed that gig, though I can't find a copy in the Tribune's archives. If I didn't review it, I know I was there because I recall how soft JH sounded next to JG when they shared the stand. And it was much more that JH was soft than that JG was loud.

Larry:

Looking through Nexis, I find your reviews from April 23, 1987 and April 24, 1986 that both cover Griffin/Henderson gigs, but nothing from 1991. By the way, Michael Weiss (and Phil Flanigan) are described in the 1987 review as "impressive newcomers."

Joe did play really soft -- that's one of the things that allowed him to play so loosely and with such tremendous rhythmic flexibility. It's impossible to play some of Joe's signature flickering and swirling shit if you're trying to blow down the back wall. Still, it was a shock to me too the first time I heard him live -- though it was also revelatory in the sense that I understood a lot more about how he manifested his concept.

Edited April 26, 2008 by Mark Stryker

[Big Al]

Happy birthday JG! 80 years and approximately 80 million notes, not a one of 'em wasted!

[JSngry]

Joe did play really soft -- that's one of the things that allowed him to play so loosely and with such tremendous rhythmic flexibility. It's impossible to play some of Joe's signature flickering and swirling shit if you're trying to blow down the back wall. Still, it was a shock to me too the first time I heard him live -- though it was also revelatory in the sense that I understood a lot more about how he manifested his concept.

Thank you!

Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!

I'd not call it "impossible", but I would say that the same things played at/with a different dynamic would take on an entirely different meaning and therefore essentially not be the same thing.

So once again - Thank you!

[Fer Urbina]

About his birthday celebrations in London, England

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=42384

F

[Shrdlu]

So glad he's still around.

One of the very fastest sax players, up there with Bird and Cannonball for speed, and it isn't just a lot of technical exercises, unlike a lot of horn players. There is a parallel with trumpeters who play very high, and someone said on a tribute to Louis Armstrong that when he played high, he did it very musically and with an excellent tone. Likewise, Johnny's playing (on that excellent Youtube clip, for a superb example) remains musical at speed.

He was definitely one of the best horns with Monk - one critic said the best one of all, and he might be right, even though Trane had the gig at one time.

[Christiern]

Now I am going to ask that you define "old fogey." Perhaps I will then better understand your negativity re Humphrey Lyttleton (who, BTW, would play music on his show that was far more advanced, stylistically, than Johnny Griffin's).

[Mark Stryker]

Joe did play really soft -- that's one of the things that allowed him to play so loosely and with such tremendous rhythmic flexibility. It's impossible to play some of Joe's signature flickering and swirling shit if you're trying to blow down the back wall. Still, it was a shock to me too the first time I heard him live -- though it was also revelatory in the sense that I understood a lot more about how he manifested his concept.

Thank you!

Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!Thank you!

I'd not call it "impossible", but I would say that the same things played at/with a different dynamic would take on an entirely different meaning and therefore essentially not be the same thing.

So once again - Thank you!

You're welcome.

To expand a bit, I think there's a trade-off that very roughly speaking breaks down along a fault line of volume vs. finesse. The louder you play the more difficult it is to realize certain kinds of timbral/rhythmic/expressive qualities. If Joe's shit is not "impossible" to play loudly, it's definitely harder to play, and Jim is exactly right that if you were to play everything that Joe would play but do it at a higher volume, the meaning and impact would be radically different. On a related issue, dynamics are one of the most under-utilized expressive tools available to a soloist. Most people either play too loud all the time or completely ignore the idea of dynamic contrast -- and not just a simple start soft and then get louder in a linear path, but a true ebb-and-flow, with dynamics used to enhance or color meaning of a particular melodic, rhythmic or harmonic idea. Thinking off the top, Wayne Shorter is one guy who gets it and plays with artful dynamics and contrast.

Who else (from the past or today) would be on the list of improvisers who use dynamics this way as opposed to a one-volume-suits-all approach?.

Edited April 28, 2008 by Mark Stryker

[Lazaro Vega]

Warne Marsh.

[Chuck Nessa]

Albert Ayler, Von Freeman, etc, etc. Many fine artists use all dynamics. Few "giants" built careers on low dynamics.

[Larry Kart]

Joe Henderson in person was much more toward the soft end of the spectrum than Warne Marsh was, at least in my experience. Or perhaps it's that Warne, in terms of dynamics, seemed as though he could do whatever he wanted and needed to do, while JH, when I heard him in a club, seemed kind of "restricted" volume-wise, as though some of his ideas would be "happier" if they could be played more loudly. Didn't he eventually have emphysema or emphysema-like symptoms? Also, a player whose dynamic range in person was startling, who could make his sound bounce beneficently off the back wall of just about any room or auditorium, was Stan Getz.

[JSngry]

I heard Joe twice, once @ UNT in the mid-80s w/a student rhythm section (doesn't count, although he played fine) & at Fat Tuesdays in 1979, w/Fred Hersch, Ivor Gett Hu on bass, and the amazing Motohoko Hino on drums. Both times he was unmiked, and both times he played on the "soft" end of the volume range. Yet - and this is key - there was never any problem hearing him, down to the subtlest detail. That's because he projected like a mofo, and that comes from having a focused sound and a focused airflow and a focused "sense" of sound.

Recordings can and do distort this. I know that I was shocked that Joe was not some paint-peeler volume wise. But after that shock wore off, I realized what was going on in the club, and what had been going on on the records. Volume is deceptive, a cat can be loud and not necessarily be "heard" in detail. Similarly, a cat can play ppp and cut through a noisy din simply by projecting his sound above and past it. Joe fell in the latter cap all the way.

I realize that there is a divergence of opinion on Joe, a lot of it "generational" & "temporal", and I respect that, but make no mistake - no matter how you feel about the ultimate merits of his playing, there is no question that he was a consummate virtuoso of the instrument, at a level that very few before or since has reached, and I mean that in the sense of minutae of nuance & execution as well as the obvious "finger" stuff. And yeah, there are certainly different "types" of virtuosity. But Joe's "type" is definitely one of them.

A name relevant to all this "saxophonology" - Larry Teal. Mark, you seem like a player yourself, so surely you know the name of this Michigan "guru"?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Albert Ayler, Von Freeman, etc, etc. Many fine artists use all dynamics. Few "giants" built careers on low dynamics.

Absolutely - Ammons, Turrentine, Gator etc etc. I expect I'm going to get the shit kicked out of me here, but I think one whose playing was rather at one dynamic level all (or a lot of) the time was Sonny Stitt (though I never saw him live and the only live albums I have of his are two with Jug and the Left Bank Label M). But to me, Sonny's playing is all about flow.

MG

[Mark Stryker]

IA name relevant to all this "saxophonology" - Larry Teal. Mark, you seem like a player yourself, so surely you know the name of this Michigan "guru"?

Absolutely -- a pioneering teacher who was essentially a classical guy but whose concepts of sound production, embouchure, breath support and all things saxophone are applicable across the board. Still a lot of folks around here who knew him and/or studied with him, but I haven't delved much into his personal/professional history. Don't think there's a book in there but probably a very good dissertation/journal article in the subject. Maybe it's been done already. But I've always wondered about the similarities/differences between, say, the concepts and teachings of Teal and Joe Allard, another guru of sound and woodwinds that a lot of jazz players studied with on the east coast.

Back to Joe. He was a Teal student for years and Joe's concept is almost impossible to imagine without that training. Jim's observation about projection vs volume is spot on. Joe could project like crazy because his sound was so focused and supported from the diaphragm. His command of the overtone series surely grew out of Teal too. Joe's mouthpiece was interesting too -- one of the rare jazz guys that used a Selmer "classical" mouthpiece -- I think it was a "D" tip opening (pretty closed for jazz) but not entirely sure what the specific model was called or whether it had been worked on or not. Bennie Maupin used the same mouthpiece early on and he was also a Teal student, used to hang at Joe's apartment when he was coming up and his playing had a lot of Joe in it, from the warm centered sound to the slippery rhythms. (Later, Maupin studied clarinet with Allard.) Javon Jackson (VERY much out of Joe) uses a similar Selmer mouthpiece I think. Sonny used one too in the early '60s -- he's playing it on the cover of the Bridge, but he gets a much louder, more popping sound out of it, but it's also very warm and centered. I've often wondered if Sonny switched from his Otto Link to the Selmer during his sabbitical because he was so involved with digging back into the mechanics of the instrument and the Selmer was a kind of back-to-basics maneuver that allowed him to focus more on the fundamentals of sound production.

On the last point, I did grow up as a player (alto). Raised in Bloomington, Ind., school at Univ. of Illinois. History major in college but always playing. Stopped after grad school (journalism) and I got a job.

Edited April 28, 2008 by Mark Stryker

[JSngry]

I think that Joe played a D*, and I think that maybe - maybe - the bore had been hollowed out just a little to let the low end speak fuller & fatter. Me myself, I play a C* that's had that modification done to it (long story how I ended up with it, never mind actively playing it...) & the work on the bore makes all the difference in the world. Having a fatter low end just opens up the resonance of the entire range, which makes the setup malleable for good jazz playing. Without that, you're trying to play jazz w/a straight-up "classical" mouthpiece & that's waht it's going to sound like.

The thing is though, you really gotta have one of those old short shank mouthpieces. The ones that they (Selmer) changed to with the longer shank suck in general, but especially to try and adapt to jazz playing.

RE: Teal vs Allard, I read/studied/obsessed over Teal's book upon beginning of formal instruction (college), & later got hip to Allard's concepts through exposure to them thru Dave Liebman @ an Aebersold clinic about 5 years later. The big thing they both stress is strong, well-supported air flow w/o interruption from the throat - always keep that throat open! Allard seems to stress using the thorat to direct the airstream in a more register specific manner (like a vocalist does) than does Teal, but it's not too much of a stretch to look at the basics of either one and infer the extrapolations of the other. Like you said, it's all about sound production & breath support, and that's something that is crucial for any genre. What those guys were putting down is stuff that every player should know about, if only to make variations on it knowingly instead of unknowingly.

[Shawn]

Here's some Griff & Lock for ya....

Griffin is also a master of dynamics.

Edited April 28, 2008 by Shawn

[aparxa]

Here's wishing Johnny a very Happy Birthday. I have known him since 1960, when I came to Riverside and here are some photos I took of him (w. Lockjaw and Curtis Mundy) in Perugia during the Unbria '84 festival:

Thanks for sharing your pics from this Umbria Jazz Festival Chris !

little typo : on bass plays Curtis Lundy (same etymology: lundi,lundy,mundy,monday)

[Christiern]

Thanks aparxa--I made the correction.

[BillF]

Here's some Griff & Lock for ya....

Griffin is also a master of dynamics.

Tremendous clip! Very much recreates the sound of their classic recordings of 1960-62, including the rhythm section, though obviously much later. Anyone any idea of the date and personnel?

[Shawn]

I believe it's the same night as this CD (or at least the cover photo is the same night as the video, look at the clothes):

That would make the date 07/10/84 at Montmartre. The rhythm section on the CD is Harry Pickens, Curtis Lundy & Kenny Washington.

Edited April 29, 2008 by Shawn

[BillF]

I believe it's the same night as this CD (or at least the cover photo is the same night as the video, look at the clothes):

That would make the date 07/10/84 at Montmartre. The rhythm section on the CD is Harry Pickens, Curtis Lundy & Kenny Washington.

Thanks!

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I believe it's the same night as this CD (or at least the cover photo is the same night as the video, look at the clothes):

That would make the date 07/10/84 at Montmartre. The rhythm section on the CD is Harry Pickens, Curtis Lundy & Kenny Washington.

Thanks!

Damn fine album that! I got it a few months ago.

MG