The Vice-Prez

[ghost of miles]

Hey all, the Night Lights funder that goes out to radio stations this autumn will be called "Race for the Vice-Prez," focusing on saxophonists of the 1940s and 50s who emulated Lester or who were sometimes/often compared to him. Besides, say, Paul Quinichette, Brew Moore, Zoot Sims, and Getz, who would you place in this category?

Edited July 29, 2008 by ghost of miles

[BruceH]

From a later generation: Clifford Jordan.

[Larry Kart]

Hey all, the Night Lights funder that goes out to radio stations this autumn will be called "Race for the Vice-Prez," focusing on saxophonists of the 1940s and 50s who emulated Lester or who were sometimes/often compared to him. Besides, say, Paul Quinichette, Brew Moore, Zoot Sims, and Getz, who would you place in this category?

They're the next half-generation along, but Richie Kamuca and Bill Perkins were absolutely drenched in Pres in their mid-'50s heyday. Eventually, both left that stance behind to try to sound tougher, along Rollins-Coltrane lines. This was momentarily disastrous for Kamuca, who then righted himself and arguably became better than ever. For Perkins the shift was pretty much disastrous all the way, IMO and in that of many others, though he did make some successful recordings in his later years with Lennie Niehaus.

Another good candidate for the title would be Allen Eager. Wardell Gray also should be considered, though he perhaps was too much his own man to qualify. The same might be the case for Al Cohn. Worldwide, there must have been several hundred worthwhile Pres disciples, maybe several thousand or more. Lord knows that when his influence was at its peak, you could find really interesting but fairly obscure Pres-drenched players all over the U.S. -- e.g. Angelo Tompros in Washington, D.C., Ray Turner in the Bronx.

[Chas]

Some lesser-known Lestorian epigones from the Fifties : Steve White , Vito Price and Mike Cuozzo

[Larry Kart]

A picture and some words about Ray Turner here:

http://www.gregwarnermusic.com/Frame-2-bio...h=1170398617147

[Larry Kart]

Al Cohn on Turner:

"I consider my two influences on saxophone to be Lester and Charlie Parker. After that, my taste broadened a little bit. I like Coleman Hawkins and Ben Webster. And there’s a fellow that was around New York years ago. Nobody’s ever heard of him—his name was Ray Turner. He was a pretty big influence."

[Larry Kart]

Lee Konitz on Stan Kosow:

http://books.google.com/books?id=PYBVxJdbp...8&ct=result

[Larry Kart]

Herbie Steward

Spike Robinson

Ammons, of course, but a la Wardell he was pretty much his own man from early on, though owing a big debt to Pres.

Sandy Mosse

Ted Brown

Dick Hafer

Bob Hardaway

[Lazaro Vega]

Early Arno Marsh.

[Peter Friedman]

There were a number of non-American tenor players who showed a strong Pres influence. British musician Tommy Whittle,

and Swedish players Erik Norstrom and Harry Backlund are some who come to mind.

[JSngry]

You only interested in those who followed the "light" side of Prez?

Because you got Jacquet, very earliest Dexter, lots of other people who followed the vocabulary and the nuances/inf;lections, jsut not the tone.

Maybe they "got it" more than those who went the other way? Or maybe not?

You gotta think about that...

[clifford_thornton]

Evidently I must re-calibrate my Prez ears, because the mention of Cliff Jordan is rather surprising.

[Larry Kart]

You only interested in those who followed the "light" side of Prez?

Because you got Jacquet, very earliest Dexter, lots of other people who followed the vocabulary and the nuances/inf;lections, jsut not the tone.

Maybe they "got it" more than those who went the other way? Or maybe not?

You gotta think about that...

I mentioned Ammons and Wardell. I would disagree that the guys who followed the so-called "light" side of Pres and also were just-plain good were not in touch with the nuances/inflections as well as the tone. Yes, there were ways to get a lot more muscular with it than, say, "Long Island Sound" Getz did, but to take Jacquet for example, what he did was meld Pres and Herschel Evans. Likewise, Von Freeman has stated that he tried to amalgamate (or whatever) Pres and Hawkins, which is hard not to hear in him. Ammons, I would guess, might have dug him some Chu Berry.

Hey, has anyone mentioned Stitt? Lots of Pres in him.

In any case, I think what the "light" guys got (at least for a while) was kind of Pres to the exclusion of a whole lot else in music or even in life -- as though Pres were a form of enlightenment, a new religion. He was, right? The thing was, to perhaps touch upon what Jim is saying, a lot of these guys were in need of enlightenment (as in relief/release).

[BeBop]

There used to be a radio program - actually a show-within-a-show - featuring "Lester's People", all Pres disciples. The hosts were Bob Houlehan and Herb Wong, and it aired on KJAZ. I'll see if I can't find something in my archives.

(If not already mentioned)

Allen Eager

...even Dex

Edited July 30, 2008 by BeBop

[Chuck Nessa]

Years ago Von Freeman lent me a few tapes from the olden days. In the '40s he was playing tenor and sounded just like Pres. In the late '40s or early '50s he switched to alto and sounded just like Bird. A few years later he went back to tenor and sounded just like Von Freeman. I think the same path was followed by Johnny Griffin.

[JSngry]

I would disagree that the guys who followed the so-called "light" side of Pres and also were just-plain good were not in touch with the nuances/inflections as well as the tone.

As would I. I was only making the point that when we think about "Prez-influenced" tenors, we reflexively think first of those who went with the tone, and there's more to it than that in terms of the man's influence.

...to take Jacquet for example, what he did was meld Pres and Herschel Evans.

Really, if you listen past the tone and the more personalized moments of space-definition, Prez & Herschel sounded a lot more alike than unlike, which puts into play the whole "regional language" thing and whether maybe they were both (and really, not just the two of them...) speaking the same language with their own accents, which in turn opens up a whole 'nother area of looking at/pondering/speculating/jerking off about who then got influenced by what, and for what reasons.

[jazzbo]

Eddie who?

[jazzbo]

The other Bill Evans. . .the older of the saxophonists.

[Quasimado]

Ziggy Vines.

Q

[Larry Kart]

The other Bill Evans. . .the older of the saxophonists.

If you mean Yusef Lateef, the net is being cast pretty wide. Why not throw in Lockjaw?

[BillF]

Hey all, the Night Lights funder that goes out to radio stations this autumn will be called "Race for the Vice-Prez," focusing on saxophonists of the 1940s and 50s who emulated Lester or who were sometimes/often compared to him. Besides, say, Paul Quinichette, Brew Moore, Zoot Sims, and Getz, who would you place in this category?

Looking forward to listening to this one, David!

I read that Lester named Wardell as his favorite disciple, adding that Allen Eager was the best of the "gray boys".

A Savoy compilation album called Lestorian Mode comes to mind. I recall that it assembled quite a few acolytes.

[mmilovan]

Charlie Christian? J.J. Johnson?

And to make things even more complicated - I always wonder, who was the earliest-known tenor man influenced by Pres - (and it's not Lady Q)?

So my guess surely would go to Jerry Jerome, let us not forget him!

Edited July 30, 2008 by mmilovan

[jazzbo]

The other Bill Evans. . .the older of the saxophonists.

If you mean Yusef Lateef, the net is being cast pretty wide. Why not throw in Lockjaw?

Sure.

I do hear Lester in Lateef, as an inspiration at the least. Though he didn't aim at being a Vice-Pres, I admit. So yes the net is wider, but I wanted to mention him.

[bruce talbot]

No one's mentioned Bob Cooper yet....Coop created a very personal style out of the Lestorian language, and. like Kamuca never failed to swing.

One of the previous posts mentioned Steve White, who, at his best was almost an embodiment of classic Prez. Where Quinichette - whose playing I love - seemed wilfully to mirror Lester's later evolution and decline. This, oddly enough started early, as Q's playing with Jay McShann in 1943 shows. On 'Say Forward I'll March' he sounds like the coarser, less mobile Lester.

Getz - on the broadcasts with the Goodman band in '45 seems to be unable to make up his mind, from tune to tune whether he wants to be Lester or someting more Hawkish and unfortunately we have, as far as I know, nothing to show us how Bud Shank sounded on tenor around this time when he was with Barnet. Bud said he always got to play Charlie's solos on the last set of the evening when CB would leave the stand and hang out. Until his 80s 'reappraisal' Bud has always been Lester through and through.

And Jack Montrose, who told me his friend and mentor in mid 40s LA was Wardell Gray.

[bruce talbot]

No one's mentioned Bob Cooper yet....Coop created a very personal style out of the Lestorian language, and. like Kamuca never failed to swing.

One of the previous posts mentioned Steve White, who, at his best was almost an embodiment of classic Prez. Where Quinichette - whose playing I love - seemed wilfully to mirror Lester's later evolution and decline. This, oddly enough started early, as Q's playing with Jay McShann in 1943 shows. On 'Say Forward I'll March' he sounds like the coarser, less mobile Lester.

Getz - on the broadcasts with the Goodman band in '45 seems to be unable to make up his mind, from tune to tune whether he wants to be Lester or someting more Hawkish and unfortunately we have, as far as I know, nothing to show us how Bud Shank sounded on tenor around this time when he was with Barnet. Bud said he always got to play Charlie's solos on the last set of the evening when CB would leave the stand and hang out. Until his 80s 'reappraisal' Bud has always been Lester through and through.

And Jack Montrose, who told me his friend and mentor in mid 40s LA was Wardell Gray.