Alexander's Marriage Woes

[sidewinder]

Really sorry to hear this, Alexander. Hang in there and don't blame yourself. Sounds like you have got absolutely the right focus on priorities ie. the well-being of your daughter.

What is it about the other sex and the crazy desire to throw money at houses as a cure-all? With the economy the way it is at the moment you are well out of that particular trap.

Wishing you well with all this and hope things work themselves out OK. Time is a great healer in all of this, even though it must feel like pergatory at the moment.

Edited August 25, 2008 by sidewinder

[robviti]

as others have already said, i'm sorry for what you and your family are going through. i admit that i'm biased toward psychotherapy and think it could play a very important role in the process of communicating, understanding, and healing. perhaps your wife will be willing to do some counseling with you if you assure her that the goal is not to "fix the marriage," but to help the two of you work together to make the split as "healthy" as possible. it's often a hard sell, but i try to encourage couples to do this so they can eventually create a friendship, shared parentship, etc. that's better than the marriage was. this is especially important when children are involved. i think the fact that there have been attempts to end the marriage in the past is another indication that the two of you need/deserve help in developing a more satisfying relationship in the future. good luck my friend.

[Hot Ptah]

If it's largely about a house, eat crow and let her get a house. Pretend to be greatly interested in the different types of tile for kitchen backsplashes and other design materials. Make genuinely insightful comments about each material.

What if she suddenly made decent comments about your music regularly, such as, this Ornette album sounds a little different than the last one you played. I see that Billy Higgins is the drummer instead of Ed Blackwell. Do you think that this makes a difference in Ornette's sound?

Wouldn't you like that? I would.

It's the same thing with this house stuff. You must let a woman do the house thing, and it is part of the pain of being a man, to pretend to be interested well enough that she is convinced that you are really interested.

That's what I did. We are still together.

[robviti]

now there's a marriage based on mutual respect and understanding.

[jazzbo]

If it's largely about a house, eat crow and let her get a house. Pretend to be greatly interested in the different types of tile for kitchen backsplashes and other design materials. Make genuinely insightful comments about each material.

What if she suddenly made decent comments about your music regularly, such as, this Ornette album sounds a little different than the last one you played. I see that Billy Higgins is the drummer instead of Ed Blackwell. Do you think that this makes a difference in Ornette's sound?

Wouldn't you like that? I would.

It's the same thing with this house stuff. You must let a woman do the house thing, and it is part of the pain of being a man, to pretend to be interested well enough that she is convinced that you are really interested.

That's what I did. We are still together.

This is solid advice.

I tell you I was scared about buying a house. . . I fled from the idea as much as I could. It was the financial commitment that derailed me, I'd never had credit and never had such a big purchase. But my wife explained to me that she had two dreams in her life since she was in high school: to be married to just the right person, and to have a home of her own. She said she had found the right person after so much searching and she wanted that second dream. So I got behind the idea.

This was perhaps one of the most life-changing things I've done. We bought a house that allowed us to not have a car for ten years. We paid extra on the house payment every month and almost completely paid the house off in ten years. Now I have that house. . . and it's paid for, and it was our haven, our world, we could not have been happier in any other residence, and the security of having it paid for and having "YOUR" place is hard to describe. Since losing Helen it is still my biggest comfort, and I've also even been able to use it to shelter a friend in need for a spell, which is a good thing for the soul.

Looking back it was the smartest thing I'd ever done, and it was the one thing I would not have done if not for the love and dream of my wonderful wife. Just one way in which she transformed my life for the better, and being able to help her in this way really bonded her to me in a different, deeper way.

[papsrus]

Yes. Buying a house is important. Selling ... ah, that's another story.

But I think you have to find out what is important to YOU now, and follow that path. If trying to restore your marriage is the most important thing, you have to put all your effort into that. I believe a man can win back the heart of his wife -- after all, she fell in love with him once. It can be done. Women love to be courted and romanced (well, most women do, anyways). ... Not to sound sexist or anything, but you can change a woman's mind if you really WANT to. But you have to ask yourself honestly if that's what you really want. If yes, I'd say move mountains to do it. But if you're not willing to move those mountains, then you have to stop blaming yourself, admit that it is what it is, and move on to the next chapter in your life.

You only live once. So figure out what YOU WANT. Then figure out how to make it happen. ... Easier said than done, but worth a try.

[catesta]

If it's largely about a house, eat crow and let her get a house. Pretend to be greatly interested in the different types of tile for kitchen backsplashes and other design materials. Make genuinely insightful comments about each material.

What if she suddenly made decent comments about your music regularly, such as, this Ornette album sounds a little different than the last one you played. I see that Billy Higgins is the drummer instead of Ed Blackwell. Do you think that this makes a difference in Ornette's sound?

Wouldn't you like that? I would.

It's the same thing with this house stuff. You must let a woman do the house thing, and it is part of the pain of being a man, to pretend to be interested well enough that she is convinced that you are really interested.

That's what I did. We are still together.

Not saying your advice is not good, but it may not be in Alexander's best interest to make a commitment like that.

I think Alexander mentioned he was not employed at the moment and may not be able to afford a purchase.

Plus, what happens if the marriage still fails? Now you've got real property to worry about.

After all, he's saying this situation was not totally new and unexpected, they've talked about it before.

Sad as it is to say, sometimes you just need to call it quits.

Just my opinion.

[JSngry]

One of the things i learned in counseling with Brenda that should have been the most obvious but was one that I most overlooked was that for her (and for many women), having/keeping a "house" (a home, really, doesn't necessarily have to be a house) isn't just an act of responsibility or a thing that offers "security", it's a vehicle for the expression of their love towards their family. Keep in mind, now, this has nothing to do with career goals, gender roles, or anything like that. Those can all still exist perfectly fine. This is all about instinct, something so primal that it can never be fully suppressed or diverted. Not all women have it, and men like me who were raised to look at women as equals in every regard might tend, as I did, to brush off this notion as sexist and/or old-fashioned romanticism. But equal and identical are not the same thing, especially when it comes to instincts.

All I'm saying is that if somebody is instinctually motivated to express their love a certain way, anybody who for too long fails to get what is going on & does not respond in such a way as to signal that that love is appreciated, welcomed, and desired through some concrete action that is played out on at least part of the same field of expression, will sooner or later be sensed as not wanting that love, and perhaps even as being hostile to it (and therefore to the one offering it). Then you become "the enemy", not because you're a bad guy, but because your partner is offering you all this love in their own way, and you're acting like you really don't give that much of a shit. And you really don't realize that you're doing it. But you are.

Never think that words are just random words, or that things are just random things, or that desires are just random desires. Relationships of intimacy function every bit as much on the subliminal level as on the conscious one, and things are very, very seldom as simple or as obvious as they appear. The general nature of intimacy is to pursue itself, not to avoid itself, and that permeates damn near everything that goes on between the two principles.

[JSngry]

If it's largely about a house, eat crow and let her get a house. Pretend to be greatly interested in the different types of tile for kitchen backsplashes and other design materials. Make genuinely insightful comments about each material.

What if she suddenly made decent comments about your music regularly, such as, this Ornette album sounds a little different than the last one you played. I see that Billy Higgins is the drummer instead of Ed Blackwell. Do you think that this makes a difference in Ornette's sound?

Wouldn't you like that? I would.

It's the same thing with this house stuff. You must let a woman do the house thing, and it is part of the pain of being a man, to pretend to be interested well enough that she is convinced that you are really interested.

That's what I did. We are still together.

Not saying your advice is not good, but it may not be in Alexander's best interest to make a commitment like that.

I think Alexander mentioned he was not employed at the moment and may not be able to afford a purchase.

Plus, what happens if the marriage still fails? Now you've got real property to worry about.

After all, he's saying this situation was not totally new and unexpected, they've talked about it before.

Sad as it is to say, sometimes you just need to call it quits.

Just my opinion.

It might not be about the house itself, though. the house might just be a symbol. In which case, there is still room to work with if both parties still have the desire. If not, hey. And even if it's there, it might not survive. But I'm of the school that if two people fall deeply in love and then at some point fall just as deeply out of love that it's worth making every effort to see if it's dead, or if it's just been deeply buried under the shitpile of life before making a final call.

[catesta]

If it's largely about a house, eat crow and let her get a house. Pretend to be greatly interested in the different types of tile for kitchen backsplashes and other design materials. Make genuinely insightful comments about each material.

What if she suddenly made decent comments about your music regularly, such as, this Ornette album sounds a little different than the last one you played. I see that Billy Higgins is the drummer instead of Ed Blackwell. Do you think that this makes a difference in Ornette's sound?

Wouldn't you like that? I would.

It's the same thing with this house stuff. You must let a woman do the house thing, and it is part of the pain of being a man, to pretend to be interested well enough that she is convinced that you are really interested.

That's what I did. We are still together.

Not saying your advice is not good, but it may not be in Alexander's best interest to make a commitment like that.

I think Alexander mentioned he was not employed at the moment and may not be able to afford a purchase.

Plus, what happens if the marriage still fails? Now you've got real property to worry about.

After all, he's saying this situation was not totally new and unexpected, they've talked about it before.

Sad as it is to say, sometimes you just need to call it quits.

Just my opinion.

It might not be about the house itself, though. the house might just be a symbol. In which case, there is still room to work with if both parties still have the desire. If not, hey. And even if it's there, it might not survive. But I'm of the school that if two people fall deeply in love and then at some point fall just as deeply out of love that it's worth making every effort to see if it's dead, or if it's just been deeply buried under the shitpile of life before making a final call.

I only speak of my own personal experiences and voice my opinions on it.

I fell deeply in love and already owned a home when I was first married. She pulled some shit about wanting something that was "ours" not to mention it should be bigger. I did it and just about a year later I wasn't living in the house anymore and it was all over. Not that we didn't try and reconcile. I went to one counseling session that was a complete fucking disaster.

Never knew how much I needed to change until I listened to the two of them laying it down for me.

I cut my losses and moved on.

Shit, do I sound a little bitter?

[papsrus]

... I went to one counseling session that was a complete fucking disaster.

Never knew how much I needed to change until I listened to the two of them laying it down for me.

I cut my losses and moved on.

Shit, do I sound a little bitter?

I've never been to counseling, but this isn't the first time I've heard that counselors will side with the woman right off the bat. Even if more fault lies with the man, it seems like a bad tactic on the part of the counselor, as far as getting the therapy going.

[catesta]

... I went to one counseling session that was a complete fucking disaster.

Never knew how much I needed to change until I listened to the two of them laying it down for me.

I cut my losses and moved on.

Shit, do I sound a little bitter?

I've never been to counseling, but this isn't the first time I've heard that counselors will side with the woman right off the bat. Even if more fault lies with the man, it seems like a bad tactic on the part of the counselor, as far as getting the therapy going.

Against my better judgement I agreed to go.

It was like something out of movie or sitcom. I think I walked out after about 20 minutes.

[Hot Ptah]

My "let her get a house and pretend to be interested in tile" post comes down to this for me. If she has a strong interest in something that you have no interest in, you are at a crossroads. You can say, this is not what I like, this is not me, so too bad, the marriage is over. I am not going to be someone I am not.

Or you can say, this is not what I like, this is not me, but it is important to her, so no matter how I feel about it, I am going to go along with it and do it in a way that makes her as happy as possible. If it makes her as happy as possible for me to have detailed conversations about the merits of different kitchen faucets in a cheerful voice, then I will have detailed conversations about different kitchen faucets in a cheerful voice. I want to make the experience as great for her as possible. (There are thousands of different kitchen faucets, I learned).

When I announced when I was 25 that I wanted to buy an expensive stereo and lots of albums, she had no interest in either. But she was enthusiastic about our spending all of our money on it, and went with me to stereo stores and listened to stereos and make helpful comments about how they sounded to her. It was because I wanted it.

Now if she announced that she wanted us to get involved in Satan worship or something genuinely evil or destructive, I would draw a line there. Otherwise, I'm there for her, however much it takes me out of my zone of preference.

[catesta]

My "let her get a house and pretend to be interested in tile" post comes down to this for me. If she has a strong interest in something that you have no interest in, you are at a crossroads. You can say, this is not what I like, this is not me, so too bad, the marriage is over. I am not going to be someone I am not.

Or you can say, this is not what I like, this is not me, but it is important to her, so no matter how I feel about it, I am going to go along with it and do it in a way that makes her as happy as possible. If it makes her as happy as possible for me to have detailed conversations about the merits of different kitchen faucets in a cheerful voice, then I will have detailed conversations about different kitchen faucets in a cheerful voice. I want to make the experience as great for her as possible. (There are thousands of different kitchen faucets, I learned).

When I announced when I was 25 that I wanted to buy an expensive stereo and lots of albums, she had no interest in either. But she was enthusiastic about our spending all of our money on it, and went with me to stereo stores and listened to stereos and make helpful comments about how they sounded to her. It was because I wanted it.

Now if she announced that she wanted us to get involved in Satan worship or something genuinely evil or destructive, I would draw a line there. Otherwise, I'm there for her, however much it takes me out of my zone of preference.

Okay, so if the root of Alexander's marriage woes are a result of his his old lady saying, I've just taken Jesus Christ as my personal...., blah blah blah, he should run, right?

Look, I know you guys are all giving solid advice and trying to salvage the marriage is the right thing to do.

Edited August 25, 2008 by catesta

[Big Al]

I wish I had something to add to all this, but everything that's come before is sage and solid advice, much better than anything I could share.

Just prayers for reconciliation (and by "reconciliation" I don't necessarily mean "getting back together for the sake of getting back together;" just simply a meeting of the minds and hearts for a better future for all three of you) is all I have to offer, for whatever that's worth.

Edited August 25, 2008 by Big Al

[Jim Alfredson]

All I've got to say is I'm sorry this is happening.

And I better get off the computer now, because my wife is hungry and wants to go get something to eat. And she's giving me that look.

"Here I come, honey!"

[AllenLowe]

well, as I like to say about my marriage, we've had 22 happy years - "but you've been married for 26." Well, 22 out of 26 ain't bad -

[JohnS]

Can't offer an useful advice but it's very sad news. Sometimes though things have a way of turning out for the best.

[Alexander]

... I went to one counseling session that was a complete fucking disaster.

Never knew how much I needed to change until I listened to the two of them laying it down for me.

I cut my losses and moved on.

Shit, do I sound a little bitter?

I've never been to counseling, but this isn't the first time I've heard that counselors will side with the woman right off the bat. Even if more fault lies with the man, it seems like a bad tactic on the part of the counselor, as far as getting the therapy going.

A couple of years ago my wife and I tried counceling and we saw a woman who came down on me like a hammer. I didn't like her at all, although my wife liked her fine...

One day my wife came to a session with MY therapist (also a woman...actually, she's a rabbi! She's awesome!), and that went VERY well. My therapist was VERY even-handed. She didn't assign blame. What she tried to do was to teach us how to communicate. After that, my wife agreed that our marriage councelor hadn't been very good that that they were ganging up on me, which wasn't fair. Since then, however, I haven't been able to get my wife to see a councelor. I'm making a concerted effort to find someone we can talk to now, because I think we really need to learn how to talk to one another again without falling into familiar patterns (she tends to nag, I tend to lecture).

[JSngry]

Took us three counselors (all women, btw, I insisted) to find one who was right. The first one hated me the second I walked in because I was making my wife unhappy (I did walk out of that one about halfway through), the second one liked me, loved the fact that I was a musician, but focused entirely on what I needed to do. I finally cjhallenged her to come up with something that Brenda needed to do, and she confessed that since Brenda solicited her (true) that she was serving as Brenda's advocate. Finally, we found one who broke it down 50/50. Brenda's jaw nearly hit the floor and you could see panic in her eyes, but I looked at her & said, "we got into this together, we're getting out of it together". And so we did.

Point being, "counseling" is like chiropracty. For ever good practitioner, there's a gazillion more quacks. The second one we had actually said as a joke one time, "I used to not to be able to spell psychotherapist, now I am one!" "Are you really?" "Well, uh, no, not really....uh, it was just a joke...so, Jim, uh.... let's work on your sensitivity skills today..."

I gladly stipulate that most men are jerks of one kind or another. It comes with the territory unless/untill there's cause for change. But it does not follow that most women are angels. Far from it. Unless it's a truly abusive or otherwise harmful situation, if both parties ain't getting bruised, the counselor ain't doin' the job.

Demand nothing less than mutual misery!

[BruceH]

Very sad to read about this terrible news. I hope things work out for everyone.

[jazzbo]

I have to agree, counseling is hit or miss but there are winners out there and success stories.

[GA Russell]

Best wishes, Alexander. Prayers go out.

[7/4]

I'm real sorry to hear about this Alexander. I hope everything works out OK.

.

[Christiern]

I have already expressed my sadness and thoughts regarding Alexander's news. Imagine my surprise when I went to get my mail today and found a bunch of free magazines in the mailroom. That is not uncommon (we get a right-wing rag called The Sun every day), but I didn't know that there is a publication devoted to divorce!