Wynton Marsalis on "Cherokee"

[Late]

This is an experiment. It might not work because most of the listeners here already have formed their opinions on Marsalis and his playing. I don't exclude myself from that statement — I have my opinions too. But the Shreds video on YouTube got me thinking. What if, hypothetically, a Wynton solo were overlayed onto, say, a Lester Bowie video — assuming, hypothetically again, it would sync up finger-wise and breath-wise — what would the response be like? Would a flood of "Bowie was a genius" comments be unleashed? Or would "there doesn't seem to be a lot of emoting going on" comments predominate?

If you can, watch this video to the end, with as an objective ear as possible:

Cherokee

What do you think?

I'll offer right now that while I'm not necessarily impressed with Marsalis's virtuoso display (although I don't think any other contemporary trumpet player has matched his technical prowess), there were moments (some of the smears, some of the rhythmic displacements) when I chimed in. To me, the solo doesn't "swing" — which might be deeply ironic considering Marsalis's emphasis on "The Big 2 & 4" — but part of me thinks: No other trumpet player I know of could play that solo. Was I moved? Not really, but that might be because of my pre-existing condition of skepticism.

[Larry Kart]

This is an experiment. It might not work because most of the listeners here already have formed their opinions on Marsalis and his playing. I don't exclude myself from that statement — I have my opinions too. But the Shreds video on YouTube got me thinking. What if, hypothetically, a Wynton solo were overlayed onto, say, a Lester Bowie video — assuming, hypothetically again, it would sync up finger-wise and breath-wise — what would the response be like? Would a flood of "Bowie was a genius" comments be unleashed? Or would "there doesn't seem to be a lot of emoting going on" comments predominate?

If you can, watch this video to the end, with as an objective ear as possible:

Cherokee

What do you think?

I'll offer right now that while I'm not necessarily impressed with Marsalis's virtuoso display (although I don't think any other contemporary trumpet player has matched his technical prowess), there were moments (some of the smears, some of the rhythmic displacements) when I chimed in. To me, the solo doesn't "swing" — which might be deeply ironic considering Marsalis's emphasis on "The Big 2 & 4" — but part of me thinks: No other trumpet player I know of could play that solo. Was I moved? Not really, but that might be because of my pre-existing condition of skepticism.

From the very first, I've thought that Wynton's secret musical soulmate was Charlie Shavers -- that is, that the kind of musician that Wynton was at heart (and at best) before he tied himself up in knots of pseudo-nobility was akin to Shavers' impish/playful temperament. In fact, I once played a Shavers' solo for the young Wynton (the title track from Shavers' great album with Coleman Hawkins, "Hawk Eyes") to see what he would make of it, but Wynton was understandably skittish, as though I were trying to trick him in some manner, and had little to say. In any case, Shavers IMO could play rings around the (to my taste, quite static) Wynton of that "Cherokee" clip, as this clip of Shavers, in good form with Buck Clayton, may demonstrate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9j5y84t0X4

More startling Shavers' solos are to be found (e.g. "Hawk Eyes"), but not on video ASFAIK.

[Chuck Nessa]

Wynton sounds more like Ruby Braff than Lester.

[JSngry]

It's kinda like going to church on a whim, and finding out that after church there's one of those pot-luck dinners were all the ladies have prepared several bajillion buttloads full of indescribably delectable dishes of all types, ranging from salads to meats to vegetable dishes to desserts with a bunch of "none of the above" stuff thrown in just to make it interesting, it's like eating at a meal like that and eating well, eating a taste of everything, several tastes of lots, eating until you've tasted damn near everything that was there but not getting overstuffed and all bloated about it, it's like doing that and then showing up at work the next day and talking about the food like you cooked it all yourself.

That's what it's like to me, this Wynton Marsalis Cherokee solo, like pigging out at the potluck and then telling everybody how all the ladies' food was made.

I'd rather hear it from the ladies myself, especially the old ones and the young ones who got that life force flowing straight from their groins to their kitchens, but hey, this guy's found a market for people who are perhaps not as discriminating, or hell, who maybe don't even like women who cook like they fuck (and brothers - if you ever find a woman who treats eating food and cooking it like it's an act of making love, PAY ATTENTION. and sisters - if you pour yourself into a meal and the man just scarfs it all down and doesn't linger and savor every bite - LOSE HIS ASS BEFORE DESSERT), hell (pt 2) maybe they don't even have much use for women or food or fucking as anything other than Lifestyle Accessories, oh well, either way, he's found a market, Wynton has, and better them than me, I think is the verdict on that, at this time.

Edited January 10, 2009 by JSngry

[Christiern]

An exhibitionistic technical exercise. Where is the music?

[Late]

Larry, did you notice that it's Wynton who introduces the Shavers video you posted? That's some deep irony there, and it eerily coheres with Jim's potluck metaphor.

But I like that parallel: Shavers and Wynton (or Wynton and Shavers). I get that, especially the impishness. I've never really thought of that quality in Marsalis before, but it's definitely there, actually (now that I consider it) somewhere in the forefront. I think the most "modern" reference (or influence) that's in Marsalis's playing (at least, let's say, post-1985) is Clark Terry. I (at least) hear some of the eighth note phrasing in Wynton's lines that's reminiscent of Terry. Then it's all backwards: a dash of Rex Stewart, a dribble of Red Allen, three quasi-dollops of Armstrong (though Wynton's tone will never be as brassy).

I actually wouldn't say that Shavers plays circles around Marsalis, but I would say that Shavers is authentic in the extreme, whereas Marsalis is likely the polar opposite. The guy just cannot play himself. Or maybe he is (or does), and that self is about an identity based on received cultural ... platitudes?

Chuck — I made the Bowie reference because I read in a Downbeat once (circa 1997, I think) that Bowie said (something to the effect of): "Man, if I could have Wynton's chops with my ideas ... !" Of course Wynton doesn't play "like" Bowie, but if we heard Wynton's playing coming out of Lester's horn, would we all say the things that are getting posted above? I think the question of perception, and how prefigured perception informs our response — well, the jury's still out on that.

[Chuck Nessa]

Gotta separate ideas and technique to make the comparo and that is not possible. BTW, Lester had some chops WM could only dream of.

[Shawn]

to continue on Jim's food scenario...

Wynton's playing...all the ingredients are there, but there is no flavor.

[Larry Kart]

Larry, did you notice that it's Wynton who introduces the Shavers video you posted? That's some deep irony there, and it eerily coheres with Jim's potluck metaphor.

But I like that parallel: Shavers and Wynton (or Wynton and Shavers). I get that, especially the impishness. I've never really thought of that quality in Marsalis before, but it's definitely there, actually (now that I consider it) somewhere in the forefront. I think the most "modern" reference (or influence) that's in Marsalis's playing (at least, let's say, post-1985) is Clark Terry. I (at least) hear some of the eighth note phrasing in Wynton's lines that's reminiscent of Terry. Then it's all backwards: a dash of Rex Stewart, a dribble of Red Allen, three quasi-dollops of Armstrong (though Wynton's tone will never be as brassy).

I actually wouldn't say that Shavers plays circles around Marsalis, but I would say that Shavers is authentic in the extreme, whereas Marsalis is likely the polar opposite. The guy just cannot play himself. Or maybe he is (or does), and that self is about an identity based on received cultural ... platitudes?

Chuck — I made the Bowie reference because I read in a Downbeat once (circa 1997, I think) that Bowie said (something to the effect of): "Man, if I could have Wynton's chops with my ideas ... !" Of course Wynton doesn't play "like" Bowie, but if we heard Wynton's playing coming out of Lester's horn, would we all say the things that are getting posted above? I think the question of perception, and how prefigured perception informs our response — well, the jury's still out on that.

No, I didn't notice that it was Wynton doing the intro, but back in 1981-2, he either had no particular reaction or a very guarded one when I played that Shavers track for him -- again, probably, because he thought the blindfold test aspect of it meant that I was trying to trick him in some way. I just thought he might dig the music and recognize a somewhat kindred soul in Shavers, and I didn't want to put Shavers' name out there before I played the track in case that might shape Wynton's response. In any case, the days of Wynton's impishness have been pretty much gone since the mid-1980s IMO; royal role models don't behave/can't afford to behave that way.

To answer your original question: If I heard that music coming out of Lester Bowie's horn, I'd be astonished and dismayed and wonder what was the matter.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

I would rather marry Charlie Barnett's great-grandaughter than listen to 1 quarter-note of Wynton's jazz philosophy blather. why dont he shut up and blow his horn be a little more like roy hargrove just and a little less Barbara Walters/ clifford brown had to die and wynton gets to be on TV? i hate life

[Larry Kart]

Ruby Braff?? Wynton sounds more like Rafael Mendez before his morning prune juice has had time to take effect.

[Larry Kart]

I would rather marry Charlie Barnett's great-grandaughter than listen to 1 quarter-note of Wynton's jazz philosophy blather. why dont he shut up and blow his horn be a little more like roy hargrove just and a little less Barbara Walters/ clifford brown had to die and wynton gets to be on TV? i hate life

What's not to like about Charlie Barnet's great-grandaughter?

[Late]

a little less Barbara Walters/ clifford brown had to die and wynton gets to be on TV? i hate life

That is the best spam poetry I've read, maybe ever.

[.:.impossible]

Effron-generated messaging.

[Joe G]

Did the pianist get lost? Wynton looks like he's trying to steer him back with that look. Hard to tell; I was lost for much of it.

Rodney Whitaker on bass - now there's a bad mf!

[Larry Kart]

And what's with all that mugging by the drummer? Sure, some guys' faces respond to what other guys are playing, but this looked kinda corny to me.

[Joe G]

Herlin Riley. Probably putting in a little extra for the cameras, but he was pretty animated the other time I saw him live, in a small university venue.

[Larry Kart]

Herlin Riley. Probably putting in a little extra for the cameras, but he was pretty animated the other time I saw him live, in a small university venue.

Maybe in Riley's mind the cameras are running all the time, especially the one that feeds back to Wynton.

[Jim Alfredson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUA5ANFUxac

[Big Wheel]

Larry, did you notice that it's Wynton who introduces the Shavers video you posted? That's some deep irony there, and it eerily coheres with Jim's potluck metaphor.

But I like that parallel: Shavers and Wynton (or Wynton and Shavers). I get that, especially the impishness. I've never really thought of that quality in Marsalis before, but it's definitely there, actually (now that I consider it) somewhere in the forefront. I think the most "modern" reference (or influence) that's in Marsalis's playing (at least, let's say, post-1985) is Clark Terry. I (at least) hear some of the eighth note phrasing in Wynton's lines that's reminiscent of Terry. Then it's all backwards: a dash of Rex Stewart, a dribble of Red Allen, three quasi-dollops of Armstrong (though Wynton's tone will never be as brassy).

I actually wouldn't say that Shavers plays circles around Marsalis, but I would say that Shavers is authentic in the extreme, whereas Marsalis is likely the polar opposite. The guy just cannot play himself. Or maybe he is (or does), and that self is about an identity based on received cultural ... platitudes?

Chuck — I made the Bowie reference because I read in a Downbeat once (circa 1997, I think) that Bowie said (something to the effect of): "Man, if I could have Wynton's chops with my ideas ... !" Of course Wynton doesn't play "like" Bowie, but if we heard Wynton's playing coming out of Lester's horn, would we all say the things that are getting posted above? I think the question of perception, and how prefigured perception informs our response — well, the jury's still out on that.

No, I didn't notice that it was Wynton doing the intro, but back in 1981-2, he either had no particular reaction or a very guarded one when I played that Shavers track for him -- again, probably, because he thought the blindfold test aspect of it meant that I was trying to trick him in some way. I just thought he might dig the music and recognize a somewhat kindred soul in Shavers, and I didn't want to put Shavers' name out there before I played the track in case that might shape Wynton's response. In any case, the days of Wynton's impishness have been pretty much gone since the mid-1980s IMO; royal role models don't behave/can't afford to behave that way.

To answer your original question: If I heard that music coming out of Lester Bowie's horn, I'd be astonished and dismayed and wonder what was the matter.

Back in 1982 Wynton may not have even been 21. There are a lot of precocious 21-year-old players who are completely unfamiliar with Shavers and Wynton may have been no exception. On top of this I think it's not unlikely that Wynton at the time was doing the vast majority of his trumpet listening to: Miles, Booker Little, Freddie Hubbard, and Dizzy - the pre-bebop thing didn't come until later. So I'm not too surprised that he was weirded out by the Shavers thing.

[John Tapscott]

Well, I know I'm in the distinct minority here, but my reaction is that if it was anyone else BUT Wynton playing that solo, we'd all be talking about what a great solo it is and what great chops the guy has!

[Stereojack]

Well, I know I'm in the distinct minority here, but my reaction is that if it was anyone else BUT Wynton playing that solo, we'd all be talking about what a great solo it is and what great chops the guy has!

Speak for yourself. When you say "we'd all", that doesn't include me! My reaction would've been the same, regardless of who was playing it.

Great chops, yes. Great solo? I don't think so.

[Larry Kart]

Larry, did you notice that it's Wynton who introduces the Shavers video you posted? That's some deep irony there, and it eerily coheres with Jim's potluck metaphor.

But I like that parallel: Shavers and Wynton (or Wynton and Shavers). I get that, especially the impishness. I've never really thought of that quality in Marsalis before, but it's definitely there, actually (now that I consider it) somewhere in the forefront. I think the most "modern" reference (or influence) that's in Marsalis's playing (at least, let's say, post-1985) is Clark Terry. I (at least) hear some of the eighth note phrasing in Wynton's lines that's reminiscent of Terry. Then it's all backwards: a dash of Rex Stewart, a dribble of Red Allen, three quasi-dollops of Armstrong (though Wynton's tone will never be as brassy).

I actually wouldn't say that Shavers plays circles around Marsalis, but I would say that Shavers is authentic in the extreme, whereas Marsalis is likely the polar opposite. The guy just cannot play himself. Or maybe he is (or does), and that self is about an identity based on received cultural ... platitudes?

Chuck — I made the Bowie reference because I read in a Downbeat once (circa 1997, I think) that Bowie said (something to the effect of): "Man, if I could have Wynton's chops with my ideas ... !" Of course Wynton doesn't play "like" Bowie, but if we heard Wynton's playing coming out of Lester's horn, would we all say the things that are getting posted above? I think the question of perception, and how prefigured perception informs our response — well, the jury's still out on that.

No, I didn't notice that it was Wynton doing the intro, but back in 1981-2, he either had no particular reaction or a very guarded one when I played that Shavers track for him -- again, probably, because he thought the blindfold test aspect of it meant that I was trying to trick him in some way. I just thought he might dig the music and recognize a somewhat kindred soul in Shavers, and I didn't want to put Shavers' name out there before I played the track in case that might shape Wynton's response. In any case, the days of Wynton's impishness have been pretty much gone since the mid-1980s IMO; royal role models don't behave/can't afford to behave that way.

To answer your original question: If I heard that music coming out of Lester Bowie's horn, I'd be astonished and dismayed and wonder what was the matter.

Back in 1982 Wynton may not have even been 21. There are a lot of precocious 21-year-old players who are completely unfamiliar with Shavers and Wynton may have been no exception. On top of this I think it's not unlikely that Wynton at the time was doing the vast majority of his trumpet listening to: Miles, Booker Little, Freddie Hubbard, and Dizzy - the pre-bebop thing didn't come until later. So I'm not too surprised that he was weirded out by the Shavers thing.

He wasn't weirded out by the music as far as I could tell, not at all, but was put on edge by the social situation as he saw it, as I tried to explain above. That is, I think he thought that by playing something and not telling him who it was first, I was trying to trick him in some way -- getting him to say that he liked someone he "shouldn't" like or vice versa or just trying to stump him. That wasn't my intent (see above), but I can see where he might have been wary/guarded. I should add that this turn of events came as a bit of surprise because up to that point the encounter/interview had been very relaxed on both sides.

[Larry Kart]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUA5ANFUxac

There are laws against that kind of thing.

[AllenLowe]

I think we might say that Wynton is musically bulimic -