***Home Plate***

[Dan Gould]

Jim is 100% correct.

Berigan, your head remains firmly implanted in your ass.

Who gave up smoked hits that happened to luckily land in someone's glove in the seventh? THAT'S THE WHOLE FUCKING CLUE YOU NEED.

IF PEDRO PITCHES A PERFECT SEVENTH WITH MORE WEAK-ASS FLY BALLS, ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY HE SHOULD GO OUT THERE FOR THE 8TH.

But he didn't.

Little says Pedro was the best pitcher on the staff at that moment and that's a pathetic crock of fucking shit.

TIMLIN HAD AN ERA OF ZERO.

WILLIAMSON WOULD HAVE HAD AN ERA OF ZERO EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT HE GAVE UP A SINGLE, NO-BIG-WHOOP SOLO JACK TO A PINCH-HITTER IN A THREE RUN GAME BACK IN BOSTON.

AND FUCK THE LITTLE FISTED BLOOP. IN SUCCESSION, JETER, WILLIAMS AND MATSUI CRUSHED PEDRO'S PITCHES.

[Tjazz]

I thought Pedro was coming out after seven, as he rarely pitches beyond the seventh inning anymore and his pitch count was way up there. Little had a rested bullpen and plenty of guys he could use. The bullpen had also performed beautifully, better than the Yank bullpen(With the notable exception of Rivera.) For Chrissakes, he could have gone matchup on each batter for two innings! Rare is the player who is honest about whether they are gassed or not- the overwhelming majority will say that they are fine and can get the next guy.

Little managed himself out of the game, and Torre made a few good moves to save the game from being a rout. Once he saw that Clemens didn't have it, he turned to Musiina, who pitched brilliantly in relief. Bringing in Wells backfired, but I could see the logic behind it. Keeping in a guy who was getting rapped around like Pedro was is absurd.

In '86, McNamara left Buckner in when he had a better defnsive player in Dave Stapleton on the bench because he wanted Buckner to be part of the on-field celebration- curse, anyone?

I agree.

Bad managing. (on the Red Sox side)

When Clements was removed after 4 runs, I thought that was great managing.

Musina got out of 2 jams later, that keep the score close.

Yankees deserved to win. Boston was mis-managed.

[Tjazz]

  I thought Pedro was coming out after seven, as he rarely pitches beyond the seventh inning anymore and his pitch count was way up there. Little had a rested bullpen and plenty of guys he could use. The bullpen had also performed beautifully, better than the Yank bullpen(With the notable exception of Rivera.) For Chrissakes, he could have gone matchup on each batter for two innings! Rare is the player who is honest about whether they are gassed or not- the overwhelming majority will say that they are fine and can get the next guy.

  Little managed himself out of the game, and Torre made a few good moves to save the game from being a rout. Once he saw that Clemens didn't have it, he turned to Musiina, who pitched brilliantly in relief. Bringing in Wells backfired, but I could see the logic behind it. Keeping in a guy who was getting rapped around like Pedro was is absurd.

    In '86, McNamara left Buckner in when he had a better defnsive player in Dave Stapleton on the bench because he wanted Buckner to be part of the on-field celebration- curse, anyone?

I agree.

Bad managing. (on the Red Sox side)

When Clements was removed after 4 runs, I thought that was great managing.

Musina got out of 2 jams later, that keep the score close.

Yankees deserved to win. Boston was mis-managed.

[ghost of miles]

The real reason why the Yanks won Thursday night: the pizza sent that very afternoon to the gravesite of Babe Ruth.

SPORTS OF THE TIMES

Red Sox Cursed Themselves

By HARVEY ARATON

Published: October 18, 2003

HAWTHORNE, N.Y.

JIM DIODATI, 23, drove up from Yonkers to hang his red college baseball socks on an overhanging bush. John Traynor, 31, jumped out of bed on a few hours' sleep, on the morning before his bachelor party, to lay a bouquet of flowers with a card that said, "Dear Babe, thanks again."

Someone left the stub of a ticket from Game 7 on Thursday night. A ball with the inscription, "Let the curse live on," nestled by the base of the headstone. The New York City tabloids, with their caustic and celebratory headlines, were spread about. The Westchester County Fife and Drum Corps came to play "God Bless America."

Gratitude flowed like Champagne in a pennant winner's clubhouse yesterday at the Gate of Heaven Cemetery, where Babe Ruth shed about as much light on the latest crushing Red Sox defeat as Manager Grady Little did after his team was confirmed dead early yesterday. By daybreak, Yankees fans were streaming off the parkways in quiet northern Westchester to pay their respects to the man they were more convinced than ever had catered another funeral postgame spread for Boston from his final resting place.

On those familiar Ruthian subjects of consumption and curses, all we really knew was that the piping hot pizza delivered to the gravesite the previous afternoon went uneaten and turned colder than Boston Common on the cruel morning after, before being carted away. "Someone actually sent him a pie," Bill Lane, the cemetery's assistant superintendent, said while on the lookout for those who might view this shrine the way Pedro Martínez eyed Karim Garcia, as a convenient and juicy target.

[Bright Moments]

MARLINS WON!!!

[Matthew]

MARLINS WON!!!

The Babe had a hangover.

[Tom in RI]

Jim, I don't disagree with your commemnts often but I think you are off base in your analogy regarding Grady Little. The established plan all season and into the playoffs has been to pull Pedro when he got to around 100 pitches. Especially in the playoffs Timlin and Embree have handled the 8th and Williamson the 9th for pretty much every game the Sox had a lead in. Sticking with Pedro was the improvisation, going against the established pattern.

Dan, as a long, long time Red Sox fan I fell your pain. However, even as I feel Little should have gone to the bullpen I also firmly believe that he is the best guy to manage this team. His handling of the Manny Ramirez unofficial suspension was perfect. It's sad that the entire season is reduced to one bad call (shades of '86) but I for one hope Little is back next year. Manny, endorsed him too.

[Dan Gould]

Tom, as I come down from the pain and anguish, I begin to understand and almost agree with your opinion of Little. I think he is the right guy for the clubhouse and over a 162 game season. In that regard, he is exactly like Dusty Baker-great to create a winning season, crappy on strategic decision-making. There is a fine column about this in today's Boston Globe-available at http://www.boston.com

which argues effectively that no one should make a snap judgement on whether to retain Grady Little, and to think in terms of whether you can find someone who will bring both the season-long handling of a group of 25 men AND the strategic decision-making you need. And think about what his replacement will walk into, a situation where he can say to his new bosses, "OK-the old guy won 95 games, got the team to game seven of the LCS and lost in the 11th inning. If I do anything less, I'm a failure?" Its a good point, as well as the point of how well Grady handled Boston and the media and the expectations. There aren't a lot of managers who would do as well in that killer cauldron as Grady Little did.

Nevertheless, he's a FUCKING MORON!! ARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!

[Brad]

Tom, Dan and Philly Q have made some very good points so I won't elaborate on them too much. I may have missed this in some of the posts but when Pedro came out in the seventh, he pointed to the sky; that is the sign that he's done and secondly, he was being congratulated by Nomar and the other players. He believed he was coming out after seven.

I don't believe Grady is coming back and he shouldn't. For all the good things he may have done, when it gets down to crunch time, he's got to use his head and he didn't. Yesterday, on WFAN in the New York are, Bob Ryan of the Globe was interviewed. He said that there's no way Grady will get his contract renewed. All of Boston hates him. He'll be reviled all next year. The ownership is image conscious and he doesn't see how they'll be able to tolerate what will happen. In his view, this is worse than '86 because although they were one strike away, here they lost to the Evil Empire in their own fuckin' stadium. That's what going to do him in, according to Ryan.

Do you know how sweet that would have been for this Yankee hating Mets fan, it would have been beyond sublime, to stick it to every Yankee fan on Friday?

One more thing, I've come to agree with Dan, there is no curse, just bad luck and stupid decisions. That's your fuckin' curse.

Regarding the World Series, I think the Marlins can beat them. This could be a replay of one the 1990 WS where nobody gave the Reds a chance to beat the mighty A's. It could happen. Everybody laughs at the Ms beating the Evil Empire but why not. I like McKeon's attitude. With that attitude, they could.

[kulu se mama]

jack mac made some very pointed remarks in the local paper. if you remember, he won 96 games with the reds in 1999 (only to lose a 1 game playoff to the mets - damn that al leiter - still the highest win total not to make the playoffs since the creation of the wildcard - but i digress). he said that he could be doing the same things here if management had only left them alone. he indicated that getting griffey, and allowing larkin and griffey free access to the gm ruined things. unfortunately that looks to be the case. i hate to say it, but go marlins.

[JSngry]

Jim, I don't disagree with your commemnts often but I think you are off base in your analogy regarding Grady Little. The established plan all season and into the playoffs has been to pull Pedro when he got to around 100 pitches. Especially in the playoffs Timlin and Embree have handled the 8th and Williamson the 9th for pretty much every game the Sox had a lead in. Sticking with Pedro was the improvisation, going against the established pattern.

You are of course correct as it pertains to the Red Sox season-long game plan.

I was referring to the cliche of sticking with your "big guy" in critical championship situations, no matter that the immediate plain-as-the-nose-on-your-face reality clearly dictates otherwise. It's such a cliche and such a buying into of the whole Romantic notion of athletes as super-humans that it's doomed to fail far more often than it succeds (otherwise darn near EVERY great player would be wearing a championship ring). Little's post-game comment that Pedro was the best pitcher on the team leads me to believe that he bought into the cliche rather than confronting the reality. It doesn't matter who the "best" pitcher on your team is, what matters is who is the best pitcher (or quarterback, or point guard, or whatever) at that moment (hardly a unique observation at this point, eh? )

When face with a make-it-or-break-it moment, Little fell back on the cliche os Superstar as Superman, whereas Torre, wjo like I said learned his lesson the hard way in several seasons managing Atlanta, kept a clear head, saw Roger Clements for what he was, a future Hall of Famer who was having a crappy day, and got him the hell out of there before the game was beyond salvation. Hero worship is for kids. Making clear-headed decisions in clutch situations is not. I'm the type of sports fan who enjoys the action at least as much for the human drama as for the actual game. Competition can and does quite often create dramas worthy of Shakespeare (well, Mamet, anyway ), and this was no exception. We saw a man's mnanagerial mettle tested, and this time, he failed the test due to a "classic" character flaw - blind hero worship. (Which is not the same as Blind Hero worship, which would have resulted in a starting rotation of Charles, Wonder, Shearing, & Feliciano or some such )

It's this tendency to fall back on the cliche of an unrealistic (and probably unconscious) "hero worship" in a point-of-no return situation that I was referring to, not the regular season Red Sox game plan. I definitely think that Little deserves to keep his gig, IF he does the requisite soul-searching about how he handled this situation. Really, if he had pulled Pedro for the 8th and the bullpen still blew it, you KNOW he'd be getting heat for taking his ace out when the game was on the line. But the facts of the moment would support that call a LOT more than the one he made, which for all the world looks to me like he got into a big-time-crossroads situation, got stars in his eyes, and saw Pedro as a Saviour rather than a guy who was basically out of gas. In other words, the manager turned into a starry-eyed fan, and that, of course, is not his gig.

So yeah, he screwed up, big time, and on a pretty fundamental level. But people can learn from their mistakes. I hope we have a chance to see if he has or not in next LCS, and then the World Series. Same for Baker, but he's been to the crossroads more than once, and from what I hear, this buffet is NOT all-you-can-eat...

[Dan Gould]

Really, if he had pulled Pedro for the 8th and the bullpen still blew it, you KNOW he'd be getting heat for taking his ace out when the game was on the line.

Oh so true, and yet, after Pedro's rocky sixth and seventh, no one would have questioned it because of how well Timlin and Williamson had pitched. If they had come in and proceeded to blow it, I think the attitude would have been, "how appropriate, the bullpen had been crappy, then it performed tremendously, and now with the World Series at stake, it reverts to crappy form. That's the Red Sox-can't do it when its on the line."

But seriously, I do not believe the "why didn't he keep Pedro in" second-guessing would have lasted long. I think everyone not in the Red Sox dugout felt that Pedro should be out and would have totally agreed with turning it over to Timlin (ONE HIT ALLOWED) and Willamson (ONE RUN ALLOWED).

I do think the Fish can beat them-the Marlins play a great deal like the Angels of last year, small ball, run, steal bases, bunt, great defense ... the Marlins are definitely good enough to win.

And God I hope they do, because the bloodletting in the Bronx will happen, just as if the Sox had done it themselves.

[BERIGAN]

Well, I still say that in a 5-3 game, Pedro made his pitch, it was a high jam job as I recall, and it just went over the infielders heads....5-5 should not mean the game is really over.

If Boston gets rid of Grady, and Chicago gets rid of Dusty(has anyone heard anything about that being a possiblity?) chances are neither team will make it back to the playoffs. The Boss is not going to be so "cheap" next year, especially if the Yankees don't win it all.....

I think the Braves one year will get rid of Bobby Cox, and the next year they will be a .500 team.... Perhaps a designated Manager should be allowed! Tom Lasorda????

[Chuck Nessa]

Chicago will NOT dumb Dusty, and Atlanta will dump shitloads of players to save money.

[BERIGAN]

Chicago will NOT dumb Dusty, and Atlanta will dump shitloads of players to save money.

I think Dusty dumbed Dusty! I guess it is the difference of a team losing 95-96 games one year, nearly playing for the World Series the next, verses a team that is always expected to compete(Boston) Who will Boston get, if Grady is Gone? What have his players said about this? It seemed they really liked him....

Chuck, I bet you are right about the Braves, a team which won 101 games, and made lots of moola, will be taken apart, to save some money for Timewarneraol. IF they keep most of the starters, and go with young kids, I bet Bobby gets them to win 85+ games.....

[ghost of miles]

Well, Pettite made up last night for blowing Game 6 against the Sox, and the Yanks finally began to hit a bit. Now to Florida, where Mussina--who pitched well as a reliever in Game 7 and as a starter in Game 4 of the ALCS--will try for his first postseason win this year. The Yanks will have a hard time beating Beckett, though. I'd still say slight odds in favor of the Marlins, esp. given their taking of Game 1 (NY hadn't lost a World Series game at home since dropping the first two games of the '96 WS to the Braves).

As a secondary Bosox fan, I hope that Grady Little comes back, too. I understand the anger & frustration, but until his bad decision Thursday night, everybody in the baseball world was talking him up as one of the primary reasons that the Sox were there. And I'm more than a little put off by Boston's new owners--are they competing w/Steinbrenner in the obnoxiousness category as well? Call me a sentimentalist, but I miss Tom Yawkey...

[BERIGAN]

Well, Pettite made up last night for blowing Game 6 against the Sox, and the Yanks finally began to hit a bit. Now to Florida, where Mussina--who pitched well as a reliever in Game 7 and as a starter in Game 4 of the ALCS--will try for his first postseason win this year. The Yanks will have a hard time beating Beckett, though. I'd still say slight odds in favor of the Marlins, esp. given their taking of Game 1 (NY hadn't lost a World Series game at home since dropping the first two games of the '96 WS to the Braves).

As a secondary Bosox fan, I hope that Grady Little comes back, too. I understand the anger & frustration, but until his bad decision Thursday night, everybody in the baseball world was talking him up as one of the primary reasons that the Sox were there. And I'm more than a little put off by Boston's new owners--are they competing w/Steinbrenner in the obnoxiousness category as well? Call me a sentimentalist, but I miss Tom Yawkey...

Oh yeah, ghost...sure your scared! What, the Yankees have lost the opening game in 9 postseason series, and won 8 of them??? You mention that they haven't lost a World series game at home since 96 against the braves when they lost 2...remind me again who won that series??????? WHOOOOO???? You like shooting fish in a barrel as well, don't ya????

[PHILLYQ]

Just my next $0.02 regarding the losing managers in the ALCS & the NLCS. Both Baker & Little do a great job in motivating their players and keeping the whole enterprise going for a long season, but when it comes down to tactics and strategy they both are lacking(That's why Zim is on the Yankee bench- it's not just for good luck!)

[Tjazz]

Go Marlins!

[doubleM]

Go Yankees!

[JSngry]

Go Carts!

[Soulstation1]

go speed racer

[Matthew]

Man, do I hate those Yankee's -- it looks like they'll win this thing.

[Brad]

It's over dudes, stick the proverbial fork in them because it looks like the Yanks have caught some marlins. Let's get it over asap and get the f***ing parade finished so I don't have to think about these guys or deal with Yankee fans until March.

Edited October 22, 2003 by Brad

[catesta]

I hate to say it, but you might be right.

Dontrelle Willis has been terrible.