connoisseur series500 Posted November 12, 2003 Report Share Posted November 12, 2003 (edited) Continuing in the vein of soul jazz... Has everyone noticed the low grades AMG plants on Lou Donaldson's soul jazz stuff? Here's their analysis: GOOD GRACIOUS (3 stars) ALLIGATOR BOOGALOO (4 stars) MR SHING A LING (2 1/2 stars) MIDNIGHT CREEPER (4 stars) SAY IT LOUD! (1 1/2 stars!) HOT DOG (2 stars) EVERYTHING I PLAY IS FUNKY (3 stars) PRETTY THINGS (2 stars) THE SCORPION (2 stars) Pretty low ratings generally and very inconsistent. They give SHING A LING 2 1/2 stars and I feel it is a better session that ALLIGATOR BOOGALOO, which I traded away. MIDNIGHT CREEPER is a keeper, so I go along with that rating. I think GOOD GRACIOUS is worth its rating just for the cover alone! Haven't heard any of the others. Been frightened off by these low assessments. SAY IT LOUD! is given only 1 1/2 stars and my favorite song from the Blue Note compilation LOST GROOVES is "Brother Soul" which comes from the SAY IT LOUD! session. Man, that song is as good as it gets for soul jazz! Is AMG way off on these sessions? Edited November 12, 2003 by connoisseur series500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheldonm Posted November 12, 2003 Report Share Posted November 12, 2003 I wouldn't (personally) let the low ratings scare me away. If I have not heard the music I would probably take a chance based on my knowledge of the artist and the sidemen playing with him. There have been so many recordings that have not received good reviews, that I thought were great (I hope this doesn't say too much about my taste in music). I have taken the chance on a ton of recordings that I have never heard or maybe I liked the way one of the sidemen played and have had very few that I have been dissapointed with. You have to remember that these reviews are just one persons opinion and everyone has different taste. It's not to say that a critics opinion is wrong, as some are right on the money, I just wouldn't base my purchase solely on their thoughts. Maybe you should be a critic, as I have bought a few recordings based on your feeling and have liked them all. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted November 12, 2003 Report Share Posted November 12, 2003 I don't have a lot of the things you mentioned but I do have Midnight Creeper and Good Gracious and they're fine cds. Really love Good Gracious. Some serious organ going on in that one. My feeling about AMG is that if you like a particular artist and see a cd and they don't give it a good rating, who cares. They're only a guide anyway and not a be all as far as I'm concerned. They're a useful source but I try not to let myself be swayed by a review of someone I know. They're very useful if you're looking at someone you don't know that much about. Plus, their star system is just for a comparison of records made by that person, not by that person vis a vis person. But, I'm sure you knew that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AfricaBrass Posted November 12, 2003 Report Share Posted November 12, 2003 I've realized that as a reviewer, I don't even know what I'm doing. I dig all those LD soul jazz dates. I figure if it was good enough for him, then it's fine for me. I'm finding it's getting harder for me to be critical. I've been trying to listen to music with a very open mind and I'm finding that I am enjoying all kinds of things that I would have put down in the past. I guess I gots no taste! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted November 12, 2003 Report Share Posted November 12, 2003 I just totally ignore the stars in AMG. I use that site for discographic information. . . most of the time it's helpful along those lines (though they are not to be considered a thorough source of information, and do have some strange entries!) My honest appraisal of Lou's souljazz work is that it is some of the best of the type on the label! Even sessions not yet on cd such as Say It Loud and Cosmos I enjoy a lot! Then again, if you traded away Alligator Boogie. . . still you've kept Mr. ShingaLing. . . I'm confused! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted November 12, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2003 Then again, if you traded away Alligator Boogie. . . still you've kept Mr. ShingaLing. . . I'm confused! Must have been a moment of insanity, Lon. It just didn't hit me at the time. I bet I'll love it now. Will have to rebuy it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted November 12, 2003 Report Share Posted November 12, 2003 Hey, you'll dig it . . .I can tell! If not, that's cool too. I just think they are all of a consistently good level, and not so different that I can dislike one a lot more than others. It's cool how we all hear things differently and have different tastes and standards and reactions. I find it all so fascinating and enjoyable to discover! For me, Alligator is one of the really good ones; it's got some of the baddest drumming there is on a Blue Note souljazz date as far as I am conerned! Leo / Idris is killin'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted November 12, 2003 Report Share Posted November 12, 2003 I'm listening to Alligator Boogaloo right now, and I totally agree with Lon! B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Burke Posted November 12, 2003 Report Share Posted November 12, 2003 (edited) I just totally ignore the stars in AMG. I think that's a good idea. As far as I'm concerned, AMG is most useful as a discographical source and as a way to find out about the general *mood* of a session (i.e. soul jazz, bop, hard bop, third stream, avant, etc.). Edited November 12, 2003 by Brandon Burke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted November 12, 2003 Report Share Posted November 12, 2003 My two well-rubbed pennies: When Sweet Poppa Lou's boogaloo material is good, it is superb. Cf., "One Cylinder" from ALLIGATOR BOOGALOO or virtually all of EVERYTHING I PLAY IS FUNKY. When it is less than good, well, its pretty darn cheesy. Luckily, there only a few really greasy dollops of Velveeta sammiched between the LP's you've listed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul Stream Posted November 12, 2003 Report Share Posted November 12, 2003 Imho, Lou's blue note organ sides virually DEFINE soul-jazz. That said, not diggin' "Alligator Boogaloo"....???? To each his own, but that's kind of like saying I'm a fan of Jazz Tenors, except for Lester Young. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danasgoodstuff Posted November 12, 2003 Report Share Posted November 12, 2003 I've owned/heard most of these at one time or another and think that Say It Loud is at least as good or better than Hot Dog (which I can't listen to without thinking how much more I like Grant Green's "It's Your Thing") or "Everything I Play" which I found pretty lack luster except for the tittle cut which is grooving (albiet not as much as Lee Dorsey's original). On the whole I think the worst thing that can be honestly said about the post-Alligator Boogaloo period is that they do get kinda samey. At least in the earlier '60s Lou would alternate organ dates with piano/conga ones; my personal favorite ones being "Here Tis" & "Gravy Train". I generally prefer these "early grooves" (my own coinage, the much maligned Don Wilkersons would qualifyhere, as would some Grant, Baby Face, Fred Jackson, John Patton, etc.) to the later "rare groove" period ('67-7?). One thing to remember about anything like AMG is that the people doing the ratings are going to be more familiar with some albums than others and if album x is the last one of a similar series that they are listening to just to get the job done its rating is going to suffer as a result. (Not to mention the notorious cases where people pretend to rate things they never listened to...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzypaul Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 Two points here... 1) I've been trying to keep the Yanow bashing to a minimum, but this is the area that really makes me scream...he can't seem to dig into funk. Period. That's fine, but in those cases, AMG really needs to hand those reviews over to someone else. I remember that Yanow really tore into Hot Dog, Say it Loud, Live at the Cadillac Club and a few more here and there with reviews that were completely uncalled for. Lou had (has?) a great ear for funk, and he had one of the better funk bands around for a while. I think his playing on most of those records is outstanding. 2) Hot Dog has to rank pretty damn high on my list of jazz-funk albums. I just look at people funny when they tell me they don't like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 The Lou stuff is what it is - blue collar bar jazz, made for a primarily African-American clientele to party to. Nothing more, and certainly nothing less. Members Only jackets came and went, but everybody still digs Levis. Might be a parallel there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 While we can all quibble about details (and personal prejudices) I think we all owe AMG and Mr. Yanow a debt of gratitude. We all have personal feelings about certain records: Maybe you got your first lay as a result of Spiritual Unity.... BUT this is a great source of info and Scott is a decent guide through 75 years of music. Some of the later entries by others are suspect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 Maybe you got your first lay as a result of Spiritual Unity.... Now that would have been kinky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 What Chuck said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul Stream Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 The Lou stuff is what it is - blue collar bar jazz, made for a primarily African-American clientele to party to. Nothing more, and certainly nothing less. Members Only jackets came and went, but everybody still digs Levis. Might be a parallel there. ...nothing more. Hmmm. I don't know if I agree on that point. That seems to imply that what they were doing is easy to do. Easily replicated, duplicated. I've heard many lesser attempts in this genre, and the musicality Lou and Co. bring to the table is unparralled. I tend to link what these guys were doing is right up there with the best that music has to offer of any brand. However, that's just my opinion. Super-biased that it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 ...nothing more. Hmmm. I don't know if I agree on that point. That seems to imply that what they were doing is easy to do. Easily replicated, duplicated No, I'm sure Jim believes what you do is your life......and nobody's life is easy. Lou done a great job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeway Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 We all have personal feelings about certain records: Maybe you got your first lay as a result of Spiritual Unity.... Well, not exactly, I think it was the Stones, but not a bad scenario anyway ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted November 13, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 Maybe you got your first lay as a result of Spiritual Unity.... Hmm, this gives me an idea for a thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 (edited) ...nothing more. Hmmm. I don't know if I agree on that point. That seems to imply that what they were doing is easy to do. Easily replicated, duplicated. I've heard many lesser attempts in this genre, and the musicality Lou and Co. bring to the table is unparralled. I tend to link what these guys were doing is right up there with the best that music has to offer of any brand. However, that's just my opinion. Super-biased that it is. "Nothing more" merely acknowledges that the "purpose" of the music was to entertain, not to go off into any cosmic explorations or political manifestos. As we've discussed in other threads, the notion that "entertainment" is by definition a "lesser" pursuit is indeed a fallacious one, thus my 2nd half of the statement - "and certainly nothing less". A culture is a complex weave of varying strands, and Lou's particular strand was of the highest possible quality. To differentiate it from different strands is in no way an attempt to assign relative value. Anythung but! It's merely an attempt to focus on exactly what that strand was, which can give one greater clarity as to how all the strands come togehter to form the whole. Ok - in some circles, the heavy duty spiritual/political stuff takes precedence, but I'll tell you what - without a STRONG cultural foundation to launch from, that stuff gets pretty silly pretty quick. And that's where Lou and others came in - making sure the foundation was as solid as it could possibly be, that nobody forgot their roots, that there would always be a commumity for those who moved out (or away) to remember as a defining force wherever they went. Ain't nothin' "easy" about THAT! Edited November 13, 2003 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJ Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 (edited) I'm a huge fan of Donaldson's work from that era (simply haven't heard as much from later), as well as before. He was an old-school type of guy in that he played for the people, unashamedly and with great commitment as well as good humor. Definitely had the chops and musicianship - including a grasp of jazz history - to add something interesting to even the least promising situations. He managed to make a string of really good albums that sold well in an era when jazz musicians were dropping into obscurity like flies. Personal favorites: GOOD GRACIOUS!, HERE 'TIS, THE SCORPION, and SAY IT LOUD. But really there are good things on all of the records from this era. My fave Donaldson of all time, though, is not a "soul jazz" outing: it's LUSH LIFE, a splendidly luxurious ballad set, one of those later 60's BN larger group dates but decidedly different. Surely this one would make an outstanding candidate for the RVG treatment. Edited November 13, 2003 by DrJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul Stream Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 ...nothing more. Hmmm. I don't know if I agree on that point. That seems to imply that what they were doing is easy to do. Easily replicated, duplicated. I've heard many lesser attempts in this genre, and the musicality Lou and Co. bring to the table is unparralled. I tend to link what these guys were doing is right up there with the best that music has to offer of any brand. However, that's just my opinion. Super-biased that it is. "Nothing more" merely acknowledges that the "purpose" of the music was to entertain, not to go off into any cosmic explorations or political manifestos. As we've discussed in other threads, the notion that "entertainment" is by definition a "lesser" pursuit is indeed a fallacious one, thus my 2nd half of the statement - "and certainly nothing less". A culture is a complex weave of varying strands, and Lou's particular strand was of the highest possible quality. To differentiate it from different strands is in no way an attempt to assign relative value. Anythung but! It's merely an attempt to focus on exactly what that strand was, which can give one greater clarity as to how all the strands come togehter to form the whole. Ok - in some circles, the heavy duty spiritual/political stuff takes precedence, but I'll tell you what - without a STRONG cultural foundation to launch from, that stuff gets pretty silly pretty quick. And that's where Lou and others came in - making sure the foundation was as solid as it could possibly be, that nobody forgot their roots, that there would always be a commumity for those who moved out (or away) to remember as a defining force wherever they went. Ain't nothin' "easy" about THAT! I even agree with Jim when I disagreed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted November 13, 2003 Report Share Posted November 13, 2003 When all is said and done, the rating for "The Scorpian" is a crime against soul jazz. That record is BAD! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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