Hardbopjazz Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 I wonder why almost all of his compositions have been overlooked by other jazz artists. Everyone plays Monk tunes, or Ellington, but why not Charles Mingus? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValerieB Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 simple: too difficult! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardbopjazz Posted May 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 simple: too difficult! An element of this may be true, but I think there has to be some other reason too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazztrain Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Interesting question. Although there are a few exceptions to your observation (most notably "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat" and to a lesser extent "Duke Ellington's Sound of Love" and "Orange Was the Color of Her Dress..."), most of the recordings of his compositions seem to be by his own groups or by the Mingus Dynasty Band. He wrote some striking ballads (such as "Vassarlean") that should be played more often. Pepper Adams did a nice album of Mingus compositions. simple: too difficult! An element of this may be true, but I think there has to be some other reason too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejp626 Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 simple: too difficult! An element of this may be true, but I think there has to be some other reason too. Well, everyone plays the shorter Ellington tunes, but hardly anyone plays the suites or the pieces that are heavily orchestrated (no touring big bands left to speak of). Much of Mingus' output is pretty complex and does need a larger group to play. I don't know if there is any concern with stepping on the toes so to speak of the Mingus Big Band, which is keeping his music alive. But could we turn the question around and ask how many other composers post 1950 say have a lot of their work covered? Monk yes and a subset of Ellington. Herbie Hancock. Maybe Horace Silver and Tad Dameron. A couple of Brubeck(Desmond) tunes are frequently covered, and a handful of Coltrane's. Possibly the top ten hits of Lou Donaldson and Lee Morgan. It doesn't seem that many to me. Seems to me most people go right back to the true standards rather than covering songs from the bop era or more recently. There aren't that many jazz "hits" that musicians want to cover -- or think the audience would recognize -- and that they should stick to originals or the true standards. Maybe I am wrong in this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardbopjazz Posted May 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 He wrote some striking ballads (such as "Vassarlean") that should be played more often. Pepper Adams did a nice album of Mingus compositions. Exactly. I was listening to his CD "Mysterious Blues" on Candid today and "Vassarlean" stood out as a tune I would have thought other artists would have recorded. I don't find any other artists that recorded this piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kh1958 Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 He wrote some striking ballads (such as "Vassarlean") that should be played more often. Pepper Adams did a nice album of Mingus compositions. Exactly. I was listening to his CD "Mysterious Blues" on Candid today and "Vassarlean" stood out as a tune I would have thought other artists would have recorded. I don't find any other artists that recorded this piece. Vassarlean was composed early in his career (1946 or earlier) and appeared under several different titles. Weird Nightmare (9, 295-296), Charles Mingus Sextette, Excelsior 1/46; (as Pipe Dream) Lady Will Carr (Billy Strayhorn?) with Baron Mingus and his Octet, 4 Star 5/6/46; (as Smooch) Miles Davis, Prestige 5/19/53; Langston Hughes with the Horace Parlan Quintet, MGM 3/18/58; (8, 294) Charles Mingus, Mercury 5/25/60; (as Vassarlean) Charles Mingus, Candid 10/20/60; Charles Mingus Orchestra, unissued 7/4/72 (Philharmonic Hall). http://mingus.onttonen.info/zenni/catalogu...ml#compositions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcello Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 (edited) I was just listening to Nostalgia in Times Square done by Sergio Salvatore and Christos Rafalides on this new cd: Edited May 28, 2009 by marcello Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Friedman Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 simple: too difficult! An element of this may be true, but I think there has to be some other reason too. Well, everyone plays the shorter Ellington tunes, but hardly anyone plays the suites or the pieces that are heavily orchestrated (no touring big bands left to speak of). Much of Mingus' output is pretty complex and does need a larger group to play. I don't know if there is any concern with stepping on the toes so to speak of the Mingus Big Band, which is keeping his music alive. But could we turn the question around and ask how many other composers post 1950 say have a lot of their work covered? Monk yes and a subset of Ellington. Herbie Hancock. Maybe Horace Silver and Tad Dameron. A couple of Brubeck(Desmond) tunes are frequently covered, and a handful of Coltrane's. Possibly the top ten hits of Lou Donaldson and Lee Morgan. It doesn't seem that many to me. Seems to me most people go right back to the true standards rather than covering songs from the bop era or more recently. There aren't that many jazz "hits" that musicians want to cover -- or think the audience would recognize -- and that they should stick to originals or the true standards. Maybe I am wrong in this. There are tunes by a number of other jazz musicians that are played quite a bit as well. Tunes by Benny Golson, Gigi Gryce, Wayne Shorter, Miles Davis, Sonny Rollins, Bill Evans, Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker are some that quickly come to mind. The point that is true though is that there are many very interesting tunes by jazz players that have been recorded only once or maybe twice. It's (in my opinion) unfortunate that some jazz tunes such as "Round Midnight" and "All Blues" get recorded over and over and over while there are so many other very good tunes that get passed over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Weird Nightmare (9, 295-296), Charles Mingus Sextette, Excelsior 1/46; (as Pipe Dream) Lady Will Carr (Billy Strayhorn?) with Baron Mingus and his Octet, 4 Star 5/6/46 Sorry to see the Carr/Strayhorn confusion at this late date. Thought we'd killed that with the Uptown cd I worked on. She was a real person deserving respect. The real info was published nine years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kh1958 Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 stzenni@tin.it would probably appreciate a corrective email. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 stzenni@tin.it would probably appreciate a corrective email. He had it 10 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffcrom Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 This has: Peggy's Blue Skylight Self Portrait in Three Colors Nostalgia in Times Square I X Love Reincarnation of a Lovebird Pithecanthropus Erectus Free Cell Block F Goodbye Pork Pie Hat Remember Rockefeller at Attica A pretty demanding program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Hell, there weren't that many people who would/could play it when he was alive. And I don't think the talent pool has gotten deeper since then. Let's face it - for most "jazz musicians", then, now, and probably forever, it's ultimately about the blowing. And Mingus didn't write no blowin' tunes, not very many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 (edited) Besides, it's next to impossible to inhabit a Mingus tune as anything other than a Mingus tune. Probably even more so than Monk. Edited May 29, 2009 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kh1958 Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Gil Evans also played Mingus songs, late in his career--Orange Was the Color.. and Goodbye Pork Pie Hat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Brown Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Another masterful composer whose compositions don't get played nearly as often as they should be is Tadd Dameron. And Hank Mobley wrote many pieces that deserve a place in the jazz repertoire. Oscar Pettiford was another fine composer whose pieces seem mostly forgotten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValerieB Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 i had an amazing experience last weekend: i went to a gallery exhibit where i was surrounded by over 70 Mingus album covers and old vinyl recordings of his! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 That was amazing! Nostalgia in Times Square gets around. It's on the new Teddy Charles cd. Fans of Mingus will really like this cd I think. I sure do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewHill Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Well there's Weird Nightmare (with Henry Threadgill) on Columbia, which is a tribute to Mingus, and Orient Express by Aki Takase, whose first track is a Mingus medley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 I think Sangrey gave the answer above... Mingus is Mingus, no use in trying to cover too much of the music. And though I appreciate and enjoy the Mingus Big Band, even there, much of the music sounds tame and softened/sweetened, compared to the raw energy of Mingus. It was his own uplifting bass playing and band-leading genius that made him so special, and to bring all that to the fore, he obviously needed his own music... it's a whole musical universe there, and I guess I could live in it exclusively for a couple of years without missing anything! Probably indeed, his music is even more difficult to cover/revive than Monk's... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValerieB Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 I think Sangrey gave the answer above... Mingus is Mingus, no use in trying to cover too much of the music. And though I appreciate and enjoy the Mingus Big Band, even there, much of the music sounds tame and softened/sweetened, compared to the raw energy of Mingus. It was his own uplifting bass playing and band-leading genius that made him so special, and to bring all that to the fore, he obviously needed his own music... it's a whole musical universe there, and I guess I could live in it exclusively for a couple of years without missing anything! Probably indeed, his music is even more difficult to cover/revive than Monk's... you said it very well. thank goodness i got to hear him innumerable times! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Well there's Weird Nightmare (with Henry Threadgill) on Columbia, which is a tribute to Mingus, and Orient Express by Aki Takase, whose first track is a Mingus medley. i like that weird nightmare cd a lot (strange that you mention threadgill, never really noticed him in there, lots of fine don byron in there for instance, hal willner's project)... interestingly a lot of the material in there is taken from relatively early albums (bohemia, pithecantropus...) and somehow i felt myself when playing mingus tunes a few months ago that these made more sense played by me than later ones... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enterprise Server Posted May 29, 2009 Report Share Posted May 29, 2009 Glad to see this interest in Mingus. I too have wondered why he has not received more attention for his many complex and artistically awesome compositions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted May 30, 2009 Report Share Posted May 30, 2009 I think Sangrey gave the answer above... Mingus is Mingus, no use in trying to cover too much of the music. And though I appreciate and enjoy the Mingus Big Band, even there, much of the music sounds tame and softened/sweetened, compared to the raw energy of Mingus. It was his own uplifting bass playing and band-leading genius that made him so special, and to bring all that to the fore, he obviously needed his own music... it's a whole musical universe there, and I guess I could live in it exclusively for a couple of years without missing anything! Probably indeed, his music is even more difficult to cover/revive than Monk's... you said it very well. thank goodness i got to hear him innumerable times! I envy you very much for this! The best I can get is watching some DVDs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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