Ted O'Reilly Posted July 3, 2009 Report Share Posted July 3, 2009 It's a release on RLR (88646) taken from 4 different events, among which one purports to include Rob McConnell (tb) and possibly Harold Land (ts). I sat with McConnell last week, and he laughed at it... It's Brownie, but it ain't McConnell, and he has no idea who it might be. Also says it's not Land on tenor. McConnell says that while he met Clifford Brown, he never did play with him at any time. But he did hang out with Richie Powell when the Brown/Roach quintet played in Toronto, and learned several tunes from him, and was much impressed with Powell as knowledgeable and generous with his talent. The relevant session from July 28, 1955 has an oral clip from Brown saying the date, and that it's being recorded in "Quebec, Canada, province of Ontario". He's a bit confused, because that's like saying "Massachusetts, USA, state of Vermont"... McConnell and I think that it's possibly from Hull, Quebec, which is directly across a river from the Canadian capitol of Ottawa, Ontario. In the '50s Hull was the place for staid Ottawa civil servants to head for some fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quasimado Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 PR says it (or some of it) was recorded by Clifford himself, which may mean it comes from the tapes held by his wife. Has anybody heard this? Q Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) At least some of this circulates on some Bit-Torrent sites now and then or in trades between collectors. What I've heard, the sound is pretty bad. I'll bet that Andorran label snatched it off a B-T site and is now trying to make money off of it. Edited September 8, 2009 by Dan Gould Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 Not necessarily. I get the impression that RLR is actually putting out things from collectors' holdings, things that are "rare live recordings" especially to those who live in a non-bit torrent world (i.e. older fans than you and I Dan). When I've compared some material to earlier sources they sound similar, and I'm not positive they've been sourced from bit-torrent but perhaps from earlier-copy-generation collectors' tapes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 Not necessarily. I get the impression that RLR is actually putting out things from collectors' holdings, things that are "rare live recordings" especially to those who live in a non-bit torrent world (i.e. older fans than you and I Dan). When I've compared some material to earlier sources they sound similar, and I'm not positive they've been sourced from bit-torrent but perhaps from earlier-copy-generation collectors' tapes. Perhaps but its certainly interesting that things like the Brownie tapes come out after they appear on Dime. Same thing with the Harold Land at The Cellar recordings that we got from DEEP originally. They circulate among collectors, someone throws them up on Dime, and then all of a sudden they've got a "new" "rare live recording". I'd say its more likely they are taking from Dime and finding paying customers among those fans who live a in a non-BT world, particularly particularly when you consider their other well-recognized business practices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete B Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 "J.J. Johnson/Kai Winding All Stars 1958 European Tour" was a direct lift from my upload on DIME, except the embroidered the discographical information a bit. I digitized those directly from cassettes that a friend lent me. I never intended anyone to pay anything for them. I stopped uploading after that happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmonahan Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 OK, time for one of my "I'm an ignorant moron" posts. What exactly are you guys talking about?! What are "Bit-Torrent" sites, where are they, and how do they work? It's tough being a Luddite, but hey, somebody has to do it! :blush2: greg mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 OK, time for one of my "I'm an ignorant moron" posts. What exactly are you guys talking about?! What are "Bit-Torrent" sites, where are they, and how do they work? It's tough being a Luddite, but hey, somebody has to do it! :blush2: greg mo B-T is a technology that allows peer-to-peer file transfers in a unique way - you don't just receive files (music or movies typically) with one other person but as part of a "swarm", that is you could get a half a megabyte from one peer, and another half a megabyte from another - and the B-T software you use puts it all together in the right order. When encoded as FLAC files, the music is compressed but not "lossy" and will sound exactly like it sounded originally. It even recognizes if a download is incomplete and furnishes you with the missing bits. Simultaneously, you are uploading bits and pieces from what you have received to other members of the "swarm". So there is no central server that hosts files, as the early music sharing sites did. Dime, AKA dimeadozen, allows B-T uploads that are non-commercial and not specifically disallowed by either the artist or the venue. There are other sites that freely share copyrighted material including things like Chuck's reissues, current releases and current movies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmonahan Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 OK, time for one of my "I'm an ignorant moron" posts. What exactly are you guys talking about?! What are "Bit-Torrent" sites, where are they, and how do they work? It's tough being a Luddite, but hey, somebody has to do it! :blush2: greg mo B-T is a technology that allows peer-to-peer file transfers in a unique way - you don't just receive files (music or movies typically) with one other person but as part of a "swarm", that is you could get a half a megabyte from one peer, and another half a megabyte from another - and the B-T software you use puts it all together in the right order. When encoded as FLAC files, the music is compressed but not "lossy" and will sound exactly like it sounded originally. It even recognizes if a download is incomplete and furnishes you with the missing bits. Simultaneously, you are uploading bits and pieces from what you have received to other members of the "swarm". So there is no central server that hosts files, as the early music sharing sites did. Dime, AKA dimeadozen, allows B-T uploads that are non-commercial and not specifically disallowed by either the artist or the venue. There are other sites that freely share copyrighted material including things like Chuck's reissues, current releases and current movies. Dan, thanks for the quick reply. It is definitely a brave new world, but it sounds like a wonderful way to share high-quality, mostly non-copyrighted material. Too bad the pirates are all over it. I hope a way can be found to keep them out. greg mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 Well, the RLR release by George Russell was taken one-to-one from a share of mine on said BT site... they ripped it off, including the info, but they missed the corrections posted in the comments... and more importantly, they will not upgrade I guess, now that the version in circulation has better sound, additional music AND finally corrected information as well! Their loss... and yes, they do rip off from there. There was a lot of Brownie around, most of it in very bad quality, alas... the releases by Lonehill, RLR and others are a mess (the Dolphy session, anyone?) Has anybody figured out all the details for these Brownie live shows? Is there a discography that includes correct info for all these "in circulation" and bootlegged recordings? I'd love to see this sorted out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 Okay guys, I'm still unconvinced, but that's okay. I know how deep the layers of the onion of jsazz trading can be, I mean there are a lot of people holding tapes and cdrs and files of these and they could have gotten the tapes of these people rather than from the sites,. It doesn't really matter. They don't really have the right to put them on cd anymore than others have the right to put them on dime, it's all pirating. Too bad the world doesn't work differently and these can be released legitimately and artists/heirs benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 Okay guys, I'm still unconvinced, but that's okay. I know how deep the layers of the onion of jsazz trading can be, I mean there are a lot of people holding tapes and cdrs and files of these and they could have gotten the tapes of these people rather than from the sites,. It doesn't really matter. They don't really have the right to put them on cd anymore than others have the right to put them on dime, it's all pirating. Too bad the world doesn't work differently and these can be released legitimately and artists/heirs benefit. Yes, I agree! But between the two alternatives, I think sharing among fans is the one I'll prefer. On the other hand, there's - alas! - no guarantee that fans will actually buy these once they'll be officially released. I try to do so whenever I actually find out about such official releases! But alas, we don't live in an ideal world... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 Personally, I'd rather have a cd release than a download, I haven't doen BTs yet and don't inted to start. I feel sort of bad buying these from the pirates, but. . . I still buy some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 Personally, I'd rather have a cd release than a download, I haven't doen BTs yet and don't inted to start. I feel sort of bad buying these from the pirates, but. . . I still buy some. Yeah, for preservation reasons, that's definitely the smarter choice. Whenever I get them cheap, I buy 'em as well, but living in a country where almost everything is overprized, that's pretty seldom the case - funny enough though the one thing I most recently found for a very good prize (7-8$) was that Brownie 3CD set on Lonehill... marvellous music! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmonahan Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 Personally, I'd rather have a cd release than a download, I haven't doen BTs yet and don't inted to start. I feel sort of bad buying these from the pirates, but. . . I still buy some. As do I, but usually only sets I can't get anywhere else. I've *never* bought one of the Mosaic ripoffs, for example. But when the only place to get the Jimmy Cleveland sessions is Lonehill, I get them there. 'Course, we've all had this conversation before, haven't we. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 I'm with you Greg, and yes we have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 The landscape is changing rapidly. Other than Mosaic, Nessa, and a few others, labels like Lonehill are becoming the only game in town for CD reissues of relatively obscure jazz recordings. The choice is usually either to by a pirate reissue or download. What is a jazz lover to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 Download what you can't buy (or realistically hope to ever be able to buy) from Mosaic, Nessa, and a few others. Live a good life and put money where it can do the most good for those about whom you really care. That, and get a gig as a supervisor at an EMI pressing plant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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