The Jazz police

[Big Beat Steve]

I think the key to understanding is that "you want to be talked about".

Sorry if the formatting of this reply looks weird but somehow ever since the new forum layout came along the "Answer" page on my screen ever so often fouls up in a BIG way. That silly "Fonts"/"Sizes" tab list overlays the top few lines of the entry field and cannot be moved so you either have to type blindfold or go down in the Answer box to make space for an editable line where your cursor moves and you can actually se what you ar etyping. Never happened with the old O layout so o... ?

Edited December 21, 2009 by Big Beat Steve

[Christiern]

Considering all the idiotic statements Wynton has made since the PR people made him, I find the Guardian story quite believable.

[AllenLowe]

by the way, let me tell you WHY Replying to the Jazz Nazis should have been kept as the title of this thread, in all seriousness -

the attempt to surpress jazz musicians because their music is in-appropriate, or decadent, or not racially pure, is EXACTLY what the Nazis did -

I would suggest - no, DEMAND - that the original title of this thread be restored -

let's call this what it is, a Fascist gesture by our leading jazz musician.

Edited December 21, 2009 by AllenLowe

[Claude]

The guy in Spain only wanted his money back, he didn't request that Larry Ochs be put in a concentration camp.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/dec/09/jazz-festival-larry-ochs-saxophone

Every use of the word Nazi for somebody intolerant implies the risk that Nazi crimes are being belittled.

We don't know if the second Guardian article is only a joke or if Wynton really said something about it. I doubt he would be that silly.

Edited December 21, 2009 by Claude

[Jimmer]

What would be funny is if the fan turned out to be one of the trolls who has been banned from here and/or AAJ.

[AllenLowe]

well, Nazi-ism started as a political movement, not a deportation movement - so this is not far from its early stages - and it had similarly racialist origins -

there's no reason to think that article is invented. They would be subject to libel laws if it were -

[Guy Berger]

by the way, let me tell you WHY Replying to the Jazz Nazis should have been kept as the title of this thread, in all seriousness -

the attempt to surpress jazz musicians because their music is in-appropriate, or decadent, or not racially pure, is EXACTLY what the Nazis did -

I would suggest - no, DEMAND - that the original title of this thread be restored -

let's call this what it is, a Fascist gesture by our leading jazz musician.

Let's keep a sense of proportion here.

[Jim Alfredson]

The term "Nazi" is overused. I like Jazz Police better because that's what the guy did anyway; he called the cops on Ochs.

[AllenLowe]

in my experience Americans are much more sensitive about this than Europeans -

but I will defer to the thread Nazis police -

[brownie]

I agree. Sorry Bill, but I'm changing the title.

MG

Thanks, MG.

The new title is much more appropriate!

[Jim Alfredson]

in my experience Americans are much more insensitive about this than Europeans -

Fixed.

[clifford_thornton]

Winston is at it again. Douchebag.

And I'll add that I hope it brings more attention, positively, to Larry Ochs' wonderful playing.

[AllenLowe]

me insensitive? Tell that to my wife Greta, while I drive my German Shepard to the Klaus Kinski festival in my BMW (while snacking, of course, on German chocolate and listening to Beethoven on my BASF tape in the Krupps's stereo cassette player) -

Edited December 21, 2009 by AllenLowe

[GA Russell]

I'm sure we all agree that calling in the police was uncalled for.

And I expect that all of us are skeptical of the complainant's claim that the music was injurious to his health.

But the Guardian article refers to the complainant as a "purist". I see it in terms of feeling that the concert was not as billed, and therefore a fraud justifying a refund of the ticket price.

I'm not familiar with Larry Ochs' music, so I have no opinion as to whether it should be called jazz.

However, I have an opinion of "smooth jazz", and I don't think it should be called jazz. If a Kenny G concert were advertised to the unsuspecting as "the latest and most advanced modern jazz," I wouldn't have any trouble demanding my money back.

So for that reason, I don't have a problem with a ticket-buyer calling into question whether the music performed was in fact jazz.

[Guy Berger]

by the way, let me tell you WHY Replying to the Jazz Nazis should have been kept as the title of this thread, in all seriousness -

the attempt to surpress jazz musicians because their music is in-appropriate, or decadent, or not racially pure, is EXACTLY what the Nazis did -

I would suggest - no, DEMAND - that the original title of this thread be restored -

let's call this what it is, a Fascist gesture by our leading jazz musician.

This is a cop out and nothing more.

[AllenLowe]

how is it a cop out? It's actually the opposite - I am facing the question head on. The technique of condemning artists for being anti-art is a fascist technique. Plain and simple.

Edited December 21, 2009 by AllenLowe

[Brad]

Referring to what the jazz listener or Marsalis did as Nazis trivializes what happened in Germany in the 1930s. One distinction that is crucial: what happened in Germany was done under state action. Marsalis can by no means be considered as acting as a state official. He's just a fool.

[AllenLowe]

yes, he's non-elected - time to be thankful for small things. And yet - if he were, let us say, dictatorial ruler of the USA - he would be doing things similar to what prior totalitarian international governments have done; especially at the behest of Commissar (Herr) Crouch.

I better start packing. This time I'll take the Volkswagen -

[AllenLowe]

all right - let's take a few quotes out of context - and edit them - all from Nazis or Nazi sympathizers:

"Joseph Goebbels.......(was) repulsed by the 'terrible squawk' of jazz;"

another German noted that"'Disgusting things are going on, disguised as 'entertainment;" there was condemnation of "Orchestras that play hot, scream on their instruments..... and other cheap devices;"

someone else noted,"jazz was not born in nor has it ever been integrated into European culture."

(anybody remember the Lincoln Center condemnation of World Music? This emanates from a similarly nationalist impulse)

I am being quite serious, in that a similar hostile provincialism occupies some very different cultural forces here - but the similarities are quite scary in their intersection -

Edited December 21, 2009 by AllenLowe

[Brad]

yes, he's non-elected - time to be thankful for small things. And yet - if he were, let us say, dictatorial ruler of the USA - he would be doing things similar to what prior totalitarian international governments have done; especially at the behest of Commissar (Herr) Crouch.

I better start packing. This time I'll take the Volkswagen -

Since you haven't overcome that distinction, your points just don't hold up. Is he a slime, yeah; I think we all agree on that. A Nazi? That's a little strong.

[Jim Alfredson]

Enough with the Nazis. I'm not changing the title back. End of story. The comparison of debating what is and isn't jazz and a nation state that murders people is, to say the least, a stretch. Enough.

[Dave James]

So we change the topic title and everyone feels better yet all the other references to Nazis in the body of the thread remain. Huh?

Edited December 22, 2009 by Dave James

[Jim Alfredson]

I thought about taking them out but I'd have to edit people's posts which I'm not very keen on doing. Besides, it stands as a testament to how dumb internet arguments can be.

[AllenLowe]

I think you guys are not reading carefully enough - just as there are many levels of racism, there are many levels of facism - that's all I'm saying, and it's dishonest to counter my arguments by refuting things I never said - not all fascists engage in ethnic cleansing - but there IS an element of cultural cleansing that has been advocated by the Lincoln Center crew that goes far beyond just critical thinking, and which speaks to a very dangerously ideological way of thinking. Hence their approval and apparent amusement that a member of a jazz audience would call for an arrest over a performance he does not like.

this is all quite clear and obvious - and sometimes, in the spirit of Jonathan Swift, you have to exaggerate in order to make the point. This fear of the use of certain parts of the language is puritanical and misses many points. This is not just a first amendment issue.

Edited December 22, 2009 by AllenLowe

[Jim Alfredson]

Allen, I hear what you're saying but the term "nazi" has almost become as meaningless as "hero" due to its over-use. And if it is simultaneously offensive to some of our European brethren, then why use it?

As for the Marsalis thing, I have to wonder whether someone is pulling the Guardian's leg.