Freddie King or Eric Clapton?

[Rimshot]

It's all good!

Hype be damned! I don't like to rate good musicians. They all bring a different flavor to the stew. Clapton and SRV are blues musicians, maybe not in the same flavor as the great "Kings" but blues players nevertheless. Hendrix ventured into blues and often in a way that'll cross a bluesman's eyes, but it's different, and good.

Hard bop was considered too extreme and an abberation by some bop players and when fusion first hit the scene, everyone turned their nose up at it except rock fans.

Now, it's just another color on the palette and musicians often travel between styles.

I enjoy Clapton a lot and consider him to be a fine musician and well worth listening to. He's going to be different than an American bluesman because it's coming from a different place, but deep down it's really coming from the same place. He's just a different flavor.

I like chicken. but I woudn't want to eat it everyday.

[kh1958]

Yes I am familiar with and love Otis Rush, Magic Sam, Freddie, Albert, BB, Buddy Guy, Peter Green, Mick Taylor, Mike Bloomfield, etc.

Two tracks of Magic Sam playing and singing are "bonus" tracks on volume 2 of The American Folk Festival of the Blues DVD. These DVDs (and these tracks) are great. There's also some fine mid-1960s Otis Rush and a smidgeon of Buddy Guy in this collection.

As for Freddie King, if you haven't heard the DVD the Beat you are missing out--amazing 1960s performances from a local Dallas teen dance show.

Mick Taylor's second studio album as a leader came out a couple of years ago, A Stone's Throw. It's pretty good.

Mike Bloomfield's had a couple of good issues lately, an unreleased Fillmore East recording with Al Kooper and his album with Nick Gravenites My Labors. The latter recording has Bloomfield's best playing on record.

[7/4]

Mike Bloomfield's had a couple of good issues lately, an unreleased Fillmore East recording with Al Kooper .

And a kick ass sit in with Johnny Winter that was his audition for Columbia.

[mikeweil]

Mike Bloomfield's had a couple of good issues lately, ..... and his album with Nick Gravenites My Labors. The latter recording has Bloomfield's best playing on record.

[DrJ]

danasgoodstuff - well, right back at ya...the "I'm too cool to be fooled by the backlash against the hype" bit is pretty arch, really. No offense, but that type of attitude I find way more reactionary than having the temerity to point out Clapton's many limitations as a guitarist. With many years of hindsight, it's clear that while he hipped many to the real deal, the emperor in many ways had no clothes.

I'm a big fan of pop music and have no problem admitting it, including acts that are "hyped." This has nothing to do with a backlash against hype..for example I'm a huge Jimmy Page fan and I'm sure that's very uncool these days among those "in the know" because Zeppelin was so popular. But his work holds up far better than Clapton's...sloppy at times, yes, but the man went for it in ways Clapton never dared to dream. It's honest, chance-taking, and unmistakeably Page.

I try not to pay any attention to hype issues at all. It's just that I hear nothing unique or compelling in Clapton's guitar playing whatsoever. As a guitarist, I feel I know what I'm talking about...you can sit down and ape Clapton in minutes, including the (lack of) emotional content. He don't do it for me, and I think many others feel the same after hearing the real deal. His voice, as I mentioned, is appealingly inadequate to me - it's not a strong voice, but one that communicates in a way that his guitar just don't do. I can't believe anyone would mention him in the same breath as a great communicator like BB King! I hold to my original opinion - a good vocal stylist, and other than a few early successes and the wonderful riffing and rhythm playing on LAYLA, vastly over-valued in the guitar department.

skeith - well, I agree about Beck's later years, but he cranked out some masterpieces in my view. Take an album like BLOW BY BLOW - chops to spare, and some pyrotechnics, but ultimate restraint (a tune like "Freeway Jam" just sounds fixing to burst into flame but he keeps reigning it in, building almost unbearable tension). He kind of lost that within a few years and never did regain it, but for a time, unbeatable.

We will have to disagree about Page, one of my all-time favorites. I never hear Page playing just to play...he was into building textures and layers and his solos, although often sloppily executed, never failed to delight and surprise me in the Zeppelin years. He went for it, plain and simple, and wasn't afraid to make mistakes. Just as importantly, he was NEVER a slavish blues imitator...while Zeppelin did some deplorable things in terms of aceing out blues artists from getting their due songwriting credits, as a player, Page build on the blues without copping wholesale. At his best there was a quality to his playing where he sounds always like he's about to careen totally out of control but somehow manages to keep it together. Personally I feel he peaked as a blues inflected soloist in the middle of their tenure, perhaps no more splendidly on ZEPPELIN III with the amazing reconstructed blues of "Since I've Been Loving You" (captures the energy of the first couple albums without the bombast of overlong and overplayed tracks like "Dazed and Confused.") After that he did some amazing things with texture building (large portions of HOUSES OF THE HOLY and PHYSICAL GRAFFITTI) but I'm not sure he ever reached the same heights as a soloist.

Edited January 3, 2004 by DrJ

[JSngry]

Dug Clapton w/Mayall & Cream. Since then, I'll take "Lay Down Sally" and the like, but only on the radio. Blues? No doubt the guy is sincere, so I give him that. Sincere and/but harmless.

He's there if you want him, and if you don't, he won't hurt you by being there. He never slapped my momma or pissed on my carpet, and I haven't bought any of his records since the days of Cream, so I guess we're even. Whatever that means...

People ragged about Marvin Gaye being on a Blindfold Test, and here we are, in the Artists section no less, 4 pages into a seemingly serious discussion about ERIC CLAPTON?

Some of my best friends are white folks, including my parents, but jezzuskhrist we some weird motherfuckers sometimes...

Edited January 3, 2004 by JSngry

[jazzbo]

Actually this started out as an ode to a Freddie King lp, and an observation that a number of the licks on this sixties lp are regurgitated pretty well by EC in the seventies.

I'm neither nuts about EC nor as harsh toards his work as some here. But considering some of the tangents that threads take here by many board membrs this discussion of EC is nothing spectacular in a red herring way. And hey, we could talk more about Freddie King and it wouldn't hurt my feelings!

I doubt the two Atlantic cds are still in print, but they're awesome: Freddie King is a Blues Master and and My Feeling for the Blues. They've got cats like Wess, King Curtis, Joe and David Newman, Latiste and more on board as well.

[Harold_Z]

I searched for those Freddie Atlantics all through the 80s. Everytime I saw them on vinyl the price tag was in excess of $50 each - so I never scored. When they came out on cd I scoffed them right up. They are Indeed great records. I suspect King Curtis and Freddie went back aways. They were both from Texas as is Cornell Dupree who stays in a supporting role on these albums and plays excellent rhythm. You can hear Cornell do hisFreddie groove on the King Curtis version of "Hideaway" from the early 60s on Capitol - a VERY good record also. Slick in just the right way. Curtis confines himself to just a couple of solos - and when he kicks in the effect is staggering. Curtis plays this chit!

...and Gerry Jemmott's Fender work is terrific. One of my favorite bassists.

The personel in general is pretty notable. Basically the New York R&B studio guys of the late 60s - early 70s joined by some New Orleans guys who were in NYC for a while at the time (Melvin Lastie and James Booker). Present in the sax section but not soloing are Greorge Coleman and David Newman. Willie Bridges plays some very nice Baritone down there on the bottom.

[mikeweil]

Always wanted to get some Freddie King, but didn't know which one to choose ... now I know

Jerry Jemmott - that waters my ears too!

[danasgoodstuff]

Lon,

the RPM/Crown/Modern/Kent (aka Bihari Bros.) BB King material has recently been collected by the UK label Ace in a v. nice 4 CD box. Good selection, intelligent notes and best ever sound.

DrJ,

Sorry not to reply sooner. I often face the dilema of posting off the cuff and risking being misconstrued, or over thinking it and taking too long for it to matter anymore. I certainly didn't mean to start a pissing match, so I'll lead here with the stuff I think we can agree on: the (relative, at least) excellence of Fresh Cream, Blow By Blow and "Since I've Been Loving You". Other than that I guess we will have to agree to disagree...In particular about Jimmy Page, by far my least favorite ex-Yardbirds guitarist. Emotionally empty, overblown (the music itself, nevermind the surrounding hype), and, most of all, C-O-L-D. Exactly the sort of formalist wankery you'd expect from an ex-session player. (I heard it that way before I knew much of the back story.) Eric, on the other (slow) hand, whatever his technical short comings, I generally find convincing up through Layla, esp'ly Yardbirds, Beano, Fresh Cream and London Sessions. After that he pretty much took himself out of the guitar hero game, or tried to, although "Double Trouble" from Just One Night" has a lovely solo that he couldn't/wouldn't have played earlier. If he'd died right after Layla (as he easily could have), he'd be as revered as Hendrix and rightfully so. It's not that he's the fastest, freshest, furthest out, etc.; it's that, for me, when he's 'on' he's just 'right'. Kinda like Grant Green in that regard; it's not a meaningfully quantifiable thing.

Perhaps we should start a thread on the producer of the Atl Freddie Kings mentioned above, the great King Curtis who also sought the right thing, not the hip or new thing...

tangentily yours,

Dana

[danasgoodstuff]

I almost forgot to put in a good word for Freddie's singing and songwriting, besides all those grooving instrumentals he also wrote some lovely songs like "Have You Ever Loved a Woman". The whole Layla album is essentially an (over)elaboration of same...(back to that pesky Clapton fellow).

[jazzbo]

Dana, yes, I'll have that box set soon, and I have the first three of the Crown lp reissue series that Ace is doing---an excellent series!

I guess I do hear a lot of B. B. in Eric, and I know he listened and collected and cherished him, but it's not to my ears the same as the way he literally reissues Freddie King and Otis Rush.

Yes King Curtis. . . I know there are fans on this board!

[Harold_Z]

Yes King Curtis. . . I know there are fans on this board!

Yes And I'm one of them !

I think Eric Clapton really absorbed BB, Otis Rush and espescially Freddie King - and I think he has said as much in print - I wish I could remember where. When he sounded like other guys, he did so intentionally and for the music at hand, which is fine, but his really MAIN influences became his fount of musical creativity.

[Tom Storer]

His kid falling out the window (oops) was the best thing that ever happened to his career.

Hey now. That was uncalled for.

[danasgoodstuff]

Lon,

IMHO, even when, or perhaps especially when, Eric is playing Freddie or Otis note for note (which I don't hear quite as often as some hear(sic)), the effect is still different, intentially and significantly so to me. It's not just that he recorded the Bluesbreakers album at club gig volume ('11') but that's certainly part of it. By the way, has anyone heard Beano in mono (UK posters?)--is it that different? Now that I think about it, did Freddy write "Have You Ever Loved a Woman" or was it written for him?

[chris olivarez]

The first Paul Butterfield album with Mike Bloomfield taking the lead guitar solos still stands up 40 years later. Also I'd like to put in a good word for Luther Allison who was a fiery singer and guitar player.

[AfricaBrass]

The first Paul Butterfield album with Mike Bloomfield taking the lead guitar solos still stands up 40 years later.

My favorite Bloomfield with Butterfield is The Original Lost Elektra Sessions

I held off buying it for a long time, but I really love this album.

[brownie]

Always liked Freddie King but nowadays when I want to hear this music I turn to Elmore James. Elmore kills me!

[jazzbo]

Yes Elmore IS a killer. That Collectables three cd set of his stuff is a SLAYER.

[skeith]

OK, you guys have whetted my appetite, I have heard Freddie King but don't own anything. Is there any one cd (single, not a box) that is the best in terms of material and sound quality? I see that Rhino has a collection - is that good?

[Eric]

YES - it is the early stuff and is very, very tasty. From there, it generally becomes more "rock-oriented", whatever that means I have an EMI set (may be out of print) that collects the "Shelter" recordings. Sure, it is not PURE blues, but it is close enough for me and Freddie is all there, vocals and playing-wise.

After the Rhino, it might be easier to just decide what to avoid, if anything.

Eric

[jazzbo]

These two seem to be available and are recommended:

[Eric]

funny Lon, snagged those a week ago (inspired by this thread of course)

Eric

PS - Elmore James does in fact kick major butt too ... I got into all this music about 10 years ago ... it has been fun to pull out/listen to all the CDs since the inception of this thread

PSS - Another guy who I really enjoy is Son Seals ... more of a 70s guy and the guitar tone is not quite as perfect as some of the above guys, but a great listen nonetheless - Chicago Fire is my favorite ...

Edited January 7, 2004 by Eric

[7/4]

The Borrower

Eric Clapton is not God - he's not even original, says Kieron Tyler

Kieron Tyler

Saturday December 1, 2007

Guardian

Tomorrow's South Bank Show celebrates Eric Clapton. It's nothing new, the programme last broadcast a hagiography of him in 1987. He used to be called Slowhand, but perhaps he ought to be called Secondhand. The celebration of this cultural pilferer probably won't point out the level to which he can be uninspired, and objectionable.

He's always been questionable company. In 1965, the Yardbirds were convinced that their third single, the groundbreaking For Your Love, would be a hit, with the potential to wow the masses. But the mix of bongos, harpsichords and tempo shifts was too much for their purist guitarist. Clapton quit.

Yardbirds' drummer Jim McCarty said that "Eric had these R&B mod songs he wanted us to do. Him leaving was a relief. Eric would be sitting in the van not talking to anyone. You'd think he's so moody, he's such a pain, we're fed up with this." With that, the grumpy Clapton was free to pursue his muse.

Except that it wasn't his muse. Clapton is a serial borrower. He even borrowed Jimi Hendrix's hair in 1967, perming his barnet to emulate the recently-arrived guitar hero. Most of his 1970s hits were chugging, Mogadon-paced covers: Bob Marley's I Shot The Sheriff, Dylan's Knockin' On Heaven's Door. His creativity with Cream, such as Strange Brew, were collaborations. Left to Clapton, Cream would have played half-hour versions of Robert Johnson's Crossroads. And the thrilling guitar on Layla was played by Duane Allman.

When not channelling the talents of others, there's his tendency towards the lachrymose. If his song Wonderful Tonight, a tribute to his then wife Patti Boyd, articulated his true feelings, she must have been married to a man with all the complexity of a block of wood. Boyd's recent autobiography chronicles the control freakery that dominated the relationship, revealed his extra-marital affairs and his love of the bottle.More bizarre was his wearing of whites to watch cricket on TV. Pasta preceded viewing The Godfather.

Another musical blub fest, Tears In Heaven, was at least written in response to what must have been a nightmare - his son Conor falling to his death from a 53rd-floor apartment in 1991.

However, Clapton has no problem letting fly when he needs to get something off his chest. In 1976 - drunk and loose-lipped - he used a Birmingham concert to praise racist Tory Enoch Powell and declare that Britain was becoming a "black colony" and that he wanted "the foreigners out". (Handy that Hendrix was dead). Reports of this show led directly to the formation of Rock Against Racism. In 2004, he told Uncut mag that Powell was "outrageously brave", rather than dismiss his past comments as drunk ravings.

Clapton's popularity is a mystery - there's no fire, no abandon, no musical identity. Given a platform, Clapton will either send you to sleep or offend your musical sensibilities with pap. But both of those must be better than hearing his pathetic political views.

[Dan Gould]

I'm glad this thread was bumped because when it was active, my interest in blues was limited to B.B. King.

Now, in the past two years, I've spent far more time and money purchasing and listening to blues than jazz, including plenty of Freddie King (I can honestly say I did not know the name four years ago). While Freddie hasn't supplanted B.B. as an all-time favorite, there is simply no doubt whatsoever on this match-up. It's

FREDDIE KING ---> (about 30 other guitarists) ---> Eric Clapton

Edited December 2, 2007 by Dan Gould