JSngry Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 I am one of those that basically thinks the European improvisers took the baton from the Americans and took improv the one step further it needed to go. What step would that be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 I am one of those that basically thinks the European improvisers took the baton from the Americans and took improv the one step further it needed to go. What step would that be? They went further in reducing or eliminating too-direct references to jazz/blues. I'd say too they were more successful in establishing networks of like-minded practitioners and that too put a real motor on the european improv scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 Oh, so it was a need that "they" needed to make, not that improvisation itself needed to make. That's a totally different thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 Well, it is a well-known argument so I don't need to rehearse it, and I was just mentioning in passing where I stand on that argument in relation to my judgement about the ensuing pattern of accomplishment. Cecil Taylor used to disdain european improv but then he came to Berlin and - crash, bang, wallop - came away carrying Tony Oxley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 There's improvisation all over the world and always has been (probably? maybe?). Jazz is just one example. So saying that I am one of those that basically thinks the European improvisers took the baton from the Americans and took improv the one step further it needed to go. Just shows that the baton for making self-aimed appraisals of what is or isn't "important" has also been passed (or is in the process of being passed). Good riddance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 Well, all this is long known and well set out, not least in Bailey's book. Regardless of that, my main point was about the higher level of activity and interest in European independent labels in the 70s and 80s which gave US musicians a greater recorded presence than they had in the US. I think everybody knows this, just as most people are familiar with discussion around improv vs free jazz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Wood Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 I am one of those that basically thinks the European improvisers took the baton from the Americans and took improv the one step further it needed to go. What step would that be? They went further in reducing or eliminating too-direct references to jazz/blues. I'd say too they were more successful in establishing networks of like-minded practitioners and that too put a real motor on the european improv scene. Did they "Reduce or eliminate" or did they replace it with references to their own musical heritages? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 (edited) I am one of those that basically thinks the European improvisers took the baton from the Americans and took improv the one step further it needed to go. What step would that be? They went further in reducing or eliminating too-direct references to jazz/blues. I'd say too they were more successful in establishing networks of like-minded practitioners and that too put a real motor on the european improv scene. Did they "Reduce or eliminate" or did they replace it with references to their own musical heritages? I guess Derek Bailey's book - as well as his practice - is the starting point now for thinking about this kind of question. It might be interesting to parse a key recording - say Topography of the Lungs - and see if there is a way to work out what 'really' happens. Edited April 17, 2011 by David Ayers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:.impossible Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 We need to up this thread and maybe close the other one. Jonathan's basic point is he wants to reissue excellent music, not merely hard-to-find music - the point I think being to advance the historical image of the art by bringing back 'lost' masterpieces, more than just to satisfy collectors who are itchy to fill a gap. And as you guys know you can find most titles you can dream of via google so there has to be good artistic reason for Jonathan to invest in a CD reissue. I maintain that my suggestion of Ran Blake and Jeanne Lee's Newest Sound Around fits the bill perfectly. Is this oop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 We need to up this thread and maybe close the other one. Jonathan's basic point is he wants to reissue excellent music, not merely hard-to-find music - the point I think being to advance the historical image of the art by bringing back 'lost' masterpieces, more than just to satisfy collectors who are itchy to fill a gap. And as you guys know you can find most titles you can dream of via google so there has to be good artistic reason for Jonathan to invest in a CD reissue. I maintain that my suggestion of Ran Blake and Jeanne Lee's Newest Sound Around fits the bill perfectly. Is this oop? It was issued on CD in 2001 and is still findable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head Man Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 (edited) We need to up this thread and maybe close the other one. Jonathan's basic point is he wants to reissue excellent music, not merely hard-to-find music - the point I think being to advance the historical image of the art by bringing back 'lost' masterpieces, more than just to satisfy collectors who are itchy to fill a gap. And as you guys know you can find most titles you can dream of via google so there has to be good artistic reason for Jonathan to invest in a CD reissue. I maintain that my suggestion of Ran Blake and Jeanne Lee's Newest Sound Around fits the bill perfectly. Is this oop? It was issued on CD in 2001 and is still findable. So why are we asking for it to be re-issued by Jonathan? Edited April 17, 2011 by Head Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted April 17, 2011 Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 We need to up this thread and maybe close the other one. Jonathan's basic point is he wants to reissue excellent music, not merely hard-to-find music - the point I think being to advance the historical image of the art by bringing back 'lost' masterpieces, more than just to satisfy collectors who are itchy to fill a gap. And as you guys know you can find most titles you can dream of via google so there has to be good artistic reason for Jonathan to invest in a CD reissue. I maintain that my suggestion of Ran Blake and Jeanne Lee's Newest Sound Around fits the bill perfectly. Is this oop? It was issued on CD in 2001 and is still findable. So why are we asking for it to be re-issued by Jonathan? Well this is part of my point - we are asking for things that exist but we missed them when they were in print or we don't like the remastering or we question the provenance etc. That is an interesting title, I agree, but findable. It needs to be things that were never on CD or only on CD in Japan. If Sony want to bring back Lee/Blake in a physical format they can do so as an on demand CD-R, if they want, or just stick it on itunes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewHill Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 So any chance we can have a proper reissue of "Forms and Sounds"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmce Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 We need to up this thread and maybe close the other one. Jonathan's basic point is he wants to reissue excellent music, not merely hard-to-find music - the point I think being to advance the historical image of the art by bringing back 'lost' masterpieces, more than just to satisfy collectors who are itchy to fill a gap. And as you guys know you can find most titles you can dream of via google so there has to be good artistic reason for Jonathan to invest in a CD reissue. I maintain that my suggestion of Ran Blake and Jeanne Lee's Newest Sound Around fits the bill perfectly. Is this oop? It was issued on CD in 2001 and is still findable. So why are we asking for it to be re-issued by Jonathan? Then find me a copy for under $100. The LP of Intents and Purposes was "findable". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head Man Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 We need to up this thread and maybe close the other one. Jonathan's basic point is he wants to reissue excellent music, not merely hard-to-find music - the point I think being to advance the historical image of the art by bringing back 'lost' masterpieces, more than just to satisfy collectors who are itchy to fill a gap. And as you guys know you can find most titles you can dream of via google so there has to be good artistic reason for Jonathan to invest in a CD reissue. I maintain that my suggestion of Ran Blake and Jeanne Lee's Newest Sound Around fits the bill perfectly. Is this oop? It was issued on CD in 2001 and is still findable. So why are we asking for it to be re-issued by Jonathan? Then find me a copy for under $100. The LP of Intents and Purposes was "findable". It's currently on Amazon (UK) for £21 and Amazon (France) for 25 euros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:.impossible Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 Wow. I had no idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 We need to up this thread and maybe close the other one. Jonathan's basic point is he wants to reissue excellent music, not merely hard-to-find music - the point I think being to advance the historical image of the art by bringing back 'lost' masterpieces, more than just to satisfy collectors who are itchy to fill a gap. And as you guys know you can find most titles you can dream of via google so there has to be good artistic reason for Jonathan to invest in a CD reissue. I maintain that my suggestion of Ran Blake and Jeanne Lee's Newest Sound Around fits the bill perfectly. Is this oop? It was issued on CD in 2001 and is still findable. So why are we asking for it to be re-issued by Jonathan? Then find me a copy for under $100. The LP of Intents and Purposes was "findable". We found you two. Better hurry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmce Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 Wow. I had no idea. Well, me either! Thanks! Even so, I don't see why something has to have never been on CD to warrant reissue. The Blake was issued once, a decade ago, for a short time in France and is still only available secondhand at an OK price. It's an album that's routinely listed on Best Jazz Albums polls and it's just plain very good. I swear I'm not being defensive about "my" choice here, I just think this is an interesting angle in this debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 Wow. I had no idea. Well, me either! Thanks! Even so, I don't see why something has to have never been on CD to warrant reissue. The Blake was issued once, a decade ago, for a short time in France and is still only available secondhand at an OK price. It's an album that's routinely listed on Best Jazz Albums polls and it's just plain very good. I swear I'm not being defensive about "my" choice here, I just think this is an interesting angle in this debate. Yeah I agree. It can be subjective too, what feels as if it has been around and how long for. That said, JLH has set the bar high with a record that is fairly classic and has never been on CD. I think really that after Dogon A.D. it might be hard to come up with anything at all. Both those records are not only minor classics but have a reputation which will sell them (that is why I&P has sold like hot cakes). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.:.impossible Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 I mean I had no idea it was rare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnlitweiler Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 "Spring of 2 Blue-Js" by Cecil Taylor, certainly - it briefly showed up long ago as, apparently, a bootleg recorded off the LP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head Man Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 I mean I had no idea it was rare. Nor did I, actually! I'm sure it will get re-issued again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 "Spring of 2 Blue-Js" by Cecil Taylor, certainly - it briefly showed up long ago as, apparently, a bootleg recorded off the LP. Yeah and that CD sucks. Except for the fact it has Spring of 2 Blue-Js on it! It's a muddy needle drop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 It gives me hope for the idea that the CD is not dead yet that this Bill Dixon record is probably going to sell out its first run pretty quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjazzg Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 almost afraid to step into the minefield of this thread. ... but as I sit listening to Conspiracy by Jeanne Lee (and let's face it she's been mentioned a bit already) but a thread search suggests not this title) I do wonder whether it might meet some of the criteria set by JLH. I just know someone's going to know of the CD release i've never heard about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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