Wynton Marsalis & Eric Clapton Play The Blues

[Jim R]

I can't agree completely with anybody thus far, but that's probably to be expected. Some misc. random thoughts...

Clapton has done some good things in the blues, and there are times when his own personality comes out enough in his solos that I think he's recognizable, but that may have more to do with tone than anything else. He probably always dreamed of being a great bluesman, but it was never meant to be. He's got some talent in other areas that distracted him from that, and I have no problem there. For me, he's really up and down. This thing with Marsalis definitely appears to be a down.

I had to chuckle at the comment that Son Seals "bested" Clapton. Even if thats true (and to me, Seals was an extremely limited and marginal talent), there are dozens if not hundreds of blues players that have bested Clapton. I think Lonnie Brooks is quite superior to Seals, but even there it wouldn't occur to me to say that he bested Clapton. There are better examples of players who have excelled in the blues.

SRV certainly was a very talented cat, and I do own a few things, but for me, he was always way too close to Albert King. That video they did together is pretty monotonous as a result, imo (but Stevie didn't always stay in that rut). By the way, despite the validity of some of the Clapton criticisms here, I would have to say that suggesting that Clapton stole anything from Albert King is off the mark. Maybe in some indirect sense, but I don't hear any direct mimicking. In fact, I really don't hear any distinct mimicking of other bluesmen in Clapton's playing. To my ears, it's just kind of routine licks, with an emphasis on playing a lot of notes (and a lot in the upper register).

I've never been particularly impressed with Mike Bloomfield, or the Butterfield band. They were very good, but I think they're somewhat over-rated. I think their importance is mainly due to when they came along.

I don't really care whether a guy is black or white or brown, but as long as the topic has come up, I don't think their is any "standard" for white blues guitarists. How the hell can you compare Mike Bloomfield to Duke Robillard or Charlie Baty or Junior Watson or...? There are different styles of playing blues. Bloomfield was less versatile than any of those three, for example. Love me some Ronnie Earl, by the way.

[John L]

I can't agree completely with anybody thus far, but that's probably to be expected. Some misc. random thoughts...

Clapton has done some good things in the blues, and there are times when his own personality comes out enough in his solos that I think he's recognizable, but that may have more to do with tone than anything else. He probably always dreamed of being a great bluesman, but it was never meant to be. He's got some talent in other areas that distracted him from that, and I have no problem there. For me, he's really up and down. This thing with Marsalis definitely appears to be a down.

I had to chuckle at the comment that Son Seals "bested" Clapton. Even if thats true (and to me, Seals was an extremely limited and marginal talent), there are dozens if not hundreds of blues players that have bested Clapton. I think Lonnie Brooks is quite superior to Seals, but even there it wouldn't occur to me to say that he bested Clapton. There are better examples of players who have excelled in the blues.

SRV certainly was a very talented cat, and I do own a few things, but for me, he was always way too close to Albert King. That video they did together is pretty monotonous as a result, imo (but Stevie didn't always stay in that rut). By the way, despite the validity of some of the Clapton criticisms here, I would have to say that suggesting that Clapton stole anything from Albert King is off the mark. Maybe in some indirect sense, but I don't hear any direct mimicking. In fact, I really don't hear any distinct mimicking of other bluesmen in Clapton's playing. To my ears, it's just kind of routine licks, with an emphasis on playing a lot of notes (and a lot in the upper register).

I've never been particularly impressed with Mike Bloomfield, or the Butterfield band. They were very good, but I think they're somewhat over-rated. I think their importance is mainly due to when they came along.

I don't really care whether a guy is black or white or brown, but as long as the topic has come up, I don't think their is any "standard" for white blues guitarists. How the hell can you compare Mike Bloomfield to Duke Robillard or Charlie Baty or Junior Watson or...? There are different styles of playing blues. Bloomfield was less versatile than any of those three, for example. Love me some Ronnie Earl, by the way.

Some interesting thoughts there, Jim.

It is true that Clapton doesn't play much like Albert King any more, although he used to sometimes. His "celebrated" solo on Strange Brew is at least 90% Albert.

I side with Hot Ptah on Son Seals. Yea, what he did was limited, but it was distinctive, original, and had deep roots. He was limited in the same sense that Muddy Waters was. The fact that 1000s of guitar virtuosi can play rings around them takes nothing away from what they did. Son Seals was a voice.

SRV came out of Albert King, for sure, as did most post-Albert blues guitar players, but he still built something profound and original on it (IMO).

[Hot Ptah]

I saw Son Seals on three occasions play inspired blues guitar, just amazing. Once was in Madison, Wisconsin in the summer of 1976, when he opened for B.B. King at the Orpheum Theater and just smoked. The crowd justifiably was screaming during his set. I did not hear any great limitations to what he was doing. Besides having an original voice, he was playing fast solos. He was not physically limited as to what he could do by a lack of chops.

In Ann Arbor, Michigan, in a small club near campus in 1980, he again played quite inspired guitar, with great energy. If he was a marginal talent, it was not on exhibit that night. Some musicians in the audience, who I had dragged to the club almost against their will, told me that they were awestruck.

In Kansas City, Missouri, at the 1998 Blues and Jazz Festival, again, he was one of the highlights of the multi-day festival, playing memorable solo after memorable solo. My brother, who had never heard him before, was amazed. These were long varied solos, with fast, intense passages. He was not limited by any lack of technique to my ears.

Some of his Alligator albums may not be classics, although I like them, but live, Son Seals was quite good.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Hot Ptah

[Chuck Nessa]

Really not trying to be snotty, but it is interesting to digest the opinions of folks who were possibly introduced to the blues by Butterfield, Bloomfield, Clapton, Mayall, SRV, etc. As I indicated earlier, my personal interest/standards were established before these guys were on the scene. In my earlier post (#43 for the interested) I neglected to mention Luther Tucker, Hubert Sumlin, Louis Myers, Jimmy Rogers, and a host of other sidemen.

I should say I consider "the blues" to be a vocal music with instrumental "commentary".

[JSngry]

I should say I consider "the blues" to be a vocal music with instrumental "commentary".

Hell, the instrumental "commentary" is ultimately vocal too, I think. At least in the time/place/type of blues you're talking about.

To that end, I'm reminded of Muddy Waters quote to the effect that a white boy could play circles around him, but no way he's ever be able to sing like him.

Which, of course, doesn't really invalidate anything or anybody, but...there is a difference, which is ok as long as you don't pretend there isn't,, or that it's all the "same thing". At some level, yeah, but at another level, no. No way. And I think you really need to personally and deeply digest how it isn't before even beginning to think about how it is.

Just my opinion.

[Chuck Nessa]

And I think you really need to personally and deeply digest how it isn't before even beginning to think about how it is.

Just my opinion.

I think I might have done that some time ago.

[JSngry]

Generic/general "you", not specific.

Definitely not specific.

[Hot Ptah]

Really not trying to be snotty, but it is interesting to digest the opinions of folks who were possibly introduced to the blues by Butterfield, Bloomfield, Clapton, Mayall, SRV, etc. As I indicated earlier, my personal interest/standards were established before these guys were on the scene. In my earlier post (#43 for the interested) I neglected to mention Luther Tucker, Hubert Sumlin, Louis Myers, Jimmy Rogers, and a host of other sidemen.

I should say I consider "the blues" to be a vocal music with instrumental "commentary".

Well, actually, because I grew up in an isolated small town with no live music within any driving distance, I had listened to the Chess anthology sets of Howlin' Wolf, Muddy Waters, Little Walter, Sonny Boy Williamson, and the Vanguard sets of Mississippi John Hurt, and "The Great Blues Men", hundreds of times before I first heard any blues live. I listened to those sets before I had any Butterfield, Bloomfield, or Mayall albums.

It was not as good as hearing the masters live, and I envy you for having the opportunity, but it was not like I thought Clapton, Beck and Page were gods, and then had a revelation in my 30s that there were black bluesmen before them.

I understand where Clapton, Peter Green, and the other white blues guys fit in.

It just bugs me when someone says that a musician is basically without merit, and then virtually every poster to follow says, Oh Yes I Agree. I want to stir the pot a little with some other thoughts.

[Chuck Nessa]

I grew up outside a small town in Iowa, no live music beyond your experience. I thought the music I heard on my visits to Chicago were dandy. I understand guys like Clapton, Green, etc being inspired. I just think this is "a different thing".

[JSngry]

Just for the record, me being totally neutral about Clapton means that I find him neither with nor without merit.

In that regard, for me, he's kinda the blues-rock equivalent of Joe Farrell with Elvin. If the goal is to do no harm, he's met it. A lot to be said for that. If it's to leave it better than you found it, I don't know, probably not, and there's a lot to be said for that too.

In the end, the scales balance out, so he's weight-neutral as far as my feelings go. Blues in orbit, perhaps?

Or not?

[Chuck Nessa]

Just for the record, me being totally neutral about Clapton means that I find him neither with nor without merit.

In that regard, for me, he's kinda the blues-rock equivalent of Joe Farrell with Elvin. If the goal is to do no harm, he's met it. A lot to be said for that. If it's to leave it better than you found it, I don't know, probably not, and there's a lot to be said for that too.

In the end, the scales balance out, so he's weight-neutral as far as my feelings go. Blues in orbit, perhaps?

Or not?

OTOH, none of this shit balances out.

[Sundog]

From what I've read, heard, and seen over the years, I think Clapton has gone out of his way to acknowledge his influences (From The Cradle being a prime example in his discography but not the only one), and has never represented himself as nothing other than a student of the blues (my words not his). That said, I guess I don't understand all the hate etc. So the guy isn't totally original or particularly innovative in the blues genre-- no big deal in my mind.

Evertything up to and including his 1981 release Another Ticket is pretty interesting and worth a listen. After that it gets sketchy (Thanks Phil Collins!). My general rule of thumb with Clapton from 1981 forward is that if he's wearing a pastel suit that matches the color of his strat. on the cover of the album, you should pass.

[Larry Kart]

In college at the U. of Chicago in the mid-1960s I got to hear Big Joe Williams a good deal, as I'm sure Chuck did. That was a revelation. Big Joe hung around the U. of C. and, of course, at Seymour's Record Mart.

[Leeway]

I saw Clapton way back in the 60s and his guitar playing was fairly astonishing. Nevertheless, I never became a record-buying fan; just something missing aside from the technical prowess. I have to admit too, that I generally found the British blues-rock scene -- how to put this?-- well-intentioned but inauthentic. Never could "get" John Mayall's "Bluesbreakers" for example.

Anyway, it surprised me to read about Clapton's anti-immigrant, racist diatribes, and it made me wonder just how much his significant and acknowledged problems with drug addiction and alcoholism affected his playing (not to mention his thinking and personal behavior).

[Chuck Nessa]

Big Joe sang improvised songs to Ann and me as he sat/lived in the back of the Jazz Record Mart - 7 West Grand Ave, Chicago IL. I will never forget that.

[JSngry]

Big Joe sang improvised songs to Ann and me as he sat/lived in the back of the Jazz Record Mart - 7 West Grand Ave, Chicago IL. I will never forget that.

Eyes are tired and glasses dirty, but I at first read "sat/lived" as "salivated", and thought...wow, that's pretty real...

[Chuck Nessa]

That too.

[Teasing the Korean]

I hope this partnership lasts indefinitely, reducing both artists' individual outputs and resulting in a smaller number of releases that I have to pass over in the dollar bin to get to the good stuff.

[Noj]

It's fascinating how much extra stuff brains stuff in ears while they're listening. I just like it if it sounds good. Clapton's got some tunes I like. More than some. Fewer than (many) others. But I don't listen to music as a contest.

Cream and Clapton go in my rock playlist with the other "bluesy" rock.

My blues playlist includes Albert Collins, Albert King, Arthur Big Boy Crudup, B.B. King, Big Bill Broonzy, Big Maybelle, Blind Blake, Blind Boy Fuller, Blind Lemon Jefferson, Blind Willie Johnson, Blind Willie McTell, Bo Diddley, Bobby Blue Bland, Brownie McGhee, Buddy Guy, Bukka White, Charlie Patton, Don Covay, Elmore James, Freddie King, Hambone Willie Newbern, Howlin' Wolf, Jimmy Dawkins, Jimmy Reed, Jimmy Witherspoon, John Campbell, John Lee Hooker, Josh White, Junior Wells, Leadbelly, Lightnin' Hopkins, Little Walter, Lonnie Johnson, Lowell Fulson, Magic Sam, Memphis Minnie, Mississippi Fred McDowell, Mississippi John Hurt, Muddy Waters, Otis Rush, R.L. Burnside, Robert Johnson, Robert Wilkins, Skip James, Sleepy John Estes, Sonny Boy Williamson, Willie Dixon, Z.Z. Hill, and a bunch of scattered tracks from compilations. I'm still learning.

I should note, I did have Stevie Ray Vaughan in my rock playlist, but he didn't really fit so I moved him into the blues section.

[MomsMobley]

And ya'll know who the greatest (only?) Big Joe Williams acolyte was? Correct, Spider John Koerner.

Mind you, I have almost no "use" for SRV music-- maybe he'd have gotten more interesting-- but did need to point out that musically & sociologically he was legit and people who say they were impressed with him live, were.

Clapton is just horrible and even if his fake Don Willaims isn't the worst, why not the real Don Williams, as well as many dozens of superior country singers/writers of late '60s, early '70s?

It's like the rock clowns who rate Gram Parsons, a horrible soul/country singer with only narrowest folk-y sweet spot.

Bonnie Railtt probably deserves more credit than she gets though I don't need in any way either. Too bad there aren't more live recordings of Gatemouth Brown

ONE solo/ONE song of Freddie King >>>>>>>>>>>> Clapton's career.

Wynton is a GREAT composer, however, if you like lobotomized black Martinu.

As an arranger he makes Van Alexander seem like Bob Graettinger.

As a singer, Clapton makes Bob Scobey seem like Charley Patton.

SRV ** was ** a Lightnin' Hopkins fan too, however, which is telling.

Electric blues turd arguments have no winner.

Chuck and I used to dance at Joy of Cooking shows!

Simultaneously, not together.

Danny Kalb

[Chuck Nessa]

Joy of Cooking was ok.

[MomsMobley]

I actually meant Mother Earth but you know us old '60s dogs-- sometimes misremember.

The answer, btw, to all greatest blues ______ is John Lee Hooker, absolutely towering artist no matter a few slum sessions (Canned Heat) ) and senior citizen cash-ins.

[JSngry]

Danny Kalb?

Really?

I was never convinced by (recorded, anyway, those who were there swear by it) Roy Buchannan,,,but Danny Kalb?

Two trains...jogging, at best, I'd think.

[Chuck Nessa]

An old school chum (Fritz Kasten) was in Joy of Cooking. Have a couple of lps and heard them live in Chicago at the Auditorium Theater. Leo Kottke was the opening act.

[paul secor]

Joy of Cooking was ok.

I don't have anything to add to what you've already posted on this thread - you've said it well - but I do love your new avatar photo.