POLL: Who Is Number 5?

[paul secor]

So is each noisy apeshit free tenor player showing an Ayler influence?

Honestly I'm not so sure... and Ayler went way back, too... there was that amazing piece from Al Sears on a BFT a while ago. Not that far from where Ayler went, I think!

"each noisy apeshit tenor player" - Strong words, my friend.

Hey you all know I LOVE Ayler and many of the others on jeffcron's little list (not Ware though, sorry).

My point was merely that... well, it seemed a bit simple to just call most free/avant players from the 60s and 70s Ayler-influenced. You could just as well call them all Coltrane-influenced and Parker-influenced.

But I see that Jeff isn't taking the easy way out:

Sorry to disagree but there is not a inch of Ayler in Evan Parker (who came completely from Coltrane and was very quickly his own man, faster than, by example, Brötzmann).

I hear you, but what I mean by "influence" might be different from what you mean. I still contend that Parker, who is indeed very much his own man, and who doesn't really sound like anyone but himself, was influenced by Ayler. It seems to me that Ayler's music, even more than Coltrane's, pointed the way to create a jazz-based music without conventional tonality and regular pulse. That doesn't mean that I think Parker sounds like Ayler.

In any case, I'm not alone:

John Fordham, from an article on Ayler in The Guardian music blog:

The unique sound of British total-improv original Evan Parker still has Ayler inflections....

From Parker's own website:

In spite of this major group activity, it is as the creator of a new solo saxophone language, extending the techniques and experiments started by John Coltrane and Albert Ayler, but taking them away from the rhythmically jazz-related areas and into the realm of abstraction, that Evan Parker is perhaps most recognised.

So is each noisy apeshit free tenor player showing an Ayler influence?

I'm disinclined to attempt a response to this.

... so I apologize if my statement might have seemed rude (it wasn't intended thusly at all, again I repeat: I love Ayler and like lots of the others' music, well at least what I know of it, so far).

But still... that quote from Parker's website: "extending the techniques and experiments started by John Coltrane and Albert Ayler" - if not them, someone else, if not him, someone else... I don't see (hear) a particular influence there. Saxophone techniques were extended ever since Hawkins got around to learn how to really play, and likely (Prince Robinson?) even before and by others in the same time. Techniques evolve and go on... Jimmy Lyons was a major innovator and one of the most amazing (technically AND musically speaking) saxophone players whose music I've yet witnessed, yet his beginnings are deeply in Bird. And so are Ayler's roots in R&B from the 40s or whenever... and I can't see a line from there to Evan Parker or other European avantgarde players (regardless if they made use of some technical aspects/extensions that Ayler may or may not have introduced or made more widely known).

The reason I quoted part of your post was that it seemed totally out of character for you.

[king ubu]

The reason I quoted part of your post was that it seemed totally out of character for you.

There's days when I'm in a cantankerous mood, ya know

And I guess I have to agree with the point made so well by Jim: Ayler put something to the fore that you can't go back behind after you've been in the know. Guess it's like with Adam, Eve, the snake and that apple... so I that respect I assume my vote would have to go to Ayler - and I'd question whether Rollins really belongs into the list, under such points of view - again don't get me wrong, I love him, collect his recordings, saw him live... he's a giant and his seemingly endless flow of ideas, this freely-associating mind of his, paired with a delivery that has matured to be as magisterial as was Satchmo's... he's the best! But did he really open up new way to look at "is" in a way that Coltrane or Ayler did?

The problem I had here was that I was - before this discussion - looking more for whose sound is reflected in whose playing, who built his conception on whom... but then I guess with the second question we might just as well look Albert and Gary Windo as we might look on Byas and Thompson or Golson.

[king ubu]

All life is the vibration of energy, and prime Ayler was all about the vibration of energy. And once you split the atom, you can't put it back together.

Unfortunately, later Ayler tried to put it back together and failed (giving AA the benefit of the doubt).

Did he really? How about the live recording from France?

This begs the question: what would Coltrane (and Ayler, too) have done, hadn't they died?

I wasn't around back then of course, but I somehow get the impression (that might be totally wrong) that this certain type of avantgarde thing had about ran its course in the late 60s. Shepp took some turns, too, Sanders, well... he was an exciting player but without a strong person to play off (that was Trane, of course), he seemed a bit... well, lost not quite, but he too, took a whole different direction (that changed, and I guess nowadays he's one of the big classicists or whatever you may call it... an authoritative, impressive musician for sure!)

[BillF]

All life is the vibration of energy, and prime Ayler was all about the vibration of energy. And once you split the atom, you can't put it back together.

Unfortunately, later Ayler tried to put it back together and failed (giving AA the benefit of the doubt).

Did he really? How about the live recording from France?

This begs the question: what would Coltrane (and Ayler, too) have done, hadn't they died?

I wasn't around back then of course, but I somehow get the impression (that might be totally wrong) that this certain type of avantgarde thing had about ran its course in the late 60s. Shepp took some turns, too, Sanders, well... he was an exciting player but without a strong person to play off (that was Trane, of course), he seemed a bit... well, lost not quite, but he too, took a whole different direction (that changed, and I guess nowadays he's one of the big classicists or whatever you may call it... an authoritative, impressive musician for sure!)

Well, I was around back then and, yes, there was a strong sense that the avant garde had run its course. The subsequent change of direction, of course, was towards a fusion with rock.

[Pete C]

Yeah, Albert was one of those guys who changed the idea of what "is" could actually be, if you know what I mean.

Are you saying Ayler was the Bill Clinton of tenor sax?

[JSngry]

No.

[GA Russell]

When I saw Sonny in Atlanta twenty years ago, he was introduced as "the most influential living jazz saxophonist in the world".

But it's not clear to me how influential Sonny has been. Perhaps I mistakenly give the credit due Sonny to Coleman Hawkins instead.

Can anyone name some tenors who would have sounded differently if Sonny had never been born?

[.:.impossible]

Isn't Bill Clinton the Bill Clinton of tenor sax?

[Pete C]

Can anyone name some tenors who would have sounded differently if Sonny had never been born?

I think Sonny's influence on David S. Ware, Ken Vandermark and later Steve Grossman has been mentioned above.

Even though people usually cite the heavy Coltrane influence on guys like Brecker & Bergonzi, I'd say that there's a Rollins component in that school of playing too. I think Joe Henderson combines Trane & Rollins too. As a good example I'd cite Henderson's playing on Softly as in a Morning Sunrise, from Larry Young's Unity.

[flat5]

Yes colinmce, Wayne Shorter is a big deal, like Joe Henderson.

So is Warne Marsh but he is very hard to emulate as an approach to improvisation in all respects!

[Dan Gould]

Can anyone name some tenors who would have sounded differently if Sonny had never been born?

Ralph Lalama, if you know his Criss Cross recordings.