POLL: Who Is Number 5?

[paul secor]

I can't say for sure that he was an influence, but I hear Ayler in some of Roscoe Mitchell's playing.

[Chuck Nessa]

Roscoe met Ayler in Germany while they were in the army.

[Pete C]

and maybe even John Coltrane toward the end.

More than maybe. Definitely, and acknowledged by Trane.

Good list of Ayler-influenced players. One major disciple you left out was David S. Ware.

[jeffcrom]

and maybe even John Coltrane toward the end.

More than maybe. Definitely, and acknowledged by Trane.

Good list of Ayler-influenced players. One major disciple you left out was David S. Ware.

Yeah, that was a pretty major oversight. Lots of others I could have listed, too, who may or may not be considered "major" (Frank Wright, Arthur Doyle, etc.)

[king ubu]

So is each noisy apeshit free tenor player showing an Ayler influence?

Honestly I'm not so sure... and Ayler went way back, too... there was that amazing piece from Al Sears on a BFT a while ago. Not that far from where Ayler went, I think!

[P.L.M]

Excuse my ignorance, but who did Ayler influence???

Ayler was one of those game-changing musicians whose influence extends beyond his instrument to an entire movement. He was a prime influence on the "energy" free jazz players. And he was, along with Cecil Taylor, one of the prime exemplars that jazz could be jazz without conventional tonality or regular pulse; as such he influenced not only young musicians like the AACM guys, but established musicians like Don Cherry, Jimmy Giuffre, and Paul Bley. But limiting it to tenor saxophonists, how about:

Peter Brotzmann

Pharoah Sanders

Ken Vandermark

David Murray

Evan Parker

Mats Gustafsson

Charles Gayle

John Gilmore

and maybe even John Coltrane toward the end.

Edit: Saw Jim's post just after I posted this.

Sorry to disagree but there is not a inch of Ayler in Evan Parker (who came completely from Coltrane and was very quickly his own man, faster than, by example, Brötzmann).

My vote, of course, goes to Albert Ayler and, for our time, to Evan Parker (John Butcher etc.)

As Ayler influence, I'll add David S. Ware who is not only the heir of Rollins, Frank Wright and, also, Frank Lowe.

Edited October 4, 2011 by P.L.M

[paul secor]

On his early recordings (and live, when I heard him once in 1966) Charles Tyler was strongly influenced by Albert Ayler. Later, he went on to find his own voice.

[paul secor]

So is each noisy apeshit free tenor player showing an Ayler influence?

Honestly I'm not so sure... and Ayler went way back, too... there was that amazing piece from Al Sears on a BFT a while ago. Not that far from where Ayler went, I think!

"each noisy apeshit tenor player" - Strong words, my friend.

[Pete C]

On his early recordings (and live, when I heard him once in 1966) Charles Tyler was strongly influenced by Albert Ayler. Later, he went on to find his own voice.

Well, Tyler was a close associate of Ayler's.

[mjazzg]

Excuse my ignorance, but who did Ayler influence???

Ayler was one of those game-changing musicians whose influence extends beyond his instrument to an entire movement. He was a prime influence on the "energy" free jazz players. And he was, along with Cecil Taylor, one of the prime exemplars that jazz could be jazz without conventional tonality or regular pulse; as such he influenced not only young musicians like the AACM guys, but established musicians like Don Cherry, Jimmy Giuffre, and Paul Bley. But limiting it to tenor saxophonists, how about:

Peter Brotzmann

Pharoah Sanders

Ken Vandermark

David Murray

Evan Parker

Mats Gustafsson

Charles Gayle

John Gilmore

and maybe even John Coltrane toward the end.

Edit: Saw Jim's post just after I posted this.

Sorry to disagree but there is not a inch of Ayler in Evan Parker (who came completely from Coltrane and was very quickly his own man, faster than, by example, Brötzmann).

My vote, of course, goes to Albert Ayler and, for our time, to Evan Parker (John Butcher etc.)

As Ayler influence, I'll add David S. Ware who is not only the heir of Rollins, Frank Wright and, also, Frank Lowe.

Interesting point about Evan Parker, I think I'd have to agree, never really heard him as an 'energy' player even when playing fast and furious. Although I definitely agree that Ayler had that wider influence which maybe opened a door for EP to step through from later Coltrane

Great list of players though, especially with Ware added

Edited October 4, 2011 by mjazzg

[jeffcrom]

Sorry to disagree but there is not a inch of Ayler in Evan Parker (who came completely from Coltrane and was very quickly his own man, faster than, by example, Brötzmann).

I hear you, but what I mean by "influence" might be different from what you mean. I still contend that Parker, who is indeed very much his own man, and who doesn't really sound like anyone but himself, was influenced by Ayler. It seems to me that Ayler's music, even more than Coltrane's, pointed the way to create a jazz-based music without conventional tonality and regular pulse. That doesn't mean that I think Parker sounds like Ayler.

In any case, I'm not alone:

John Fordham, from an article on Ayler in The Guardian music blog:

The unique sound of British total-improv original Evan Parker still has Ayler inflections....

From Parker's own website:

In spite of this major group activity, it is as the creator of a new solo saxophone language, extending the techniques and experiments started by John Coltrane and Albert Ayler, but taking them away from the rhythmically jazz-related areas and into the realm of abstraction, that Evan Parker is perhaps most recognised.

So is each noisy apeshit free tenor player showing an Ayler influence?

I'm disinclined to attempt a response to this.

Edited October 4, 2011 by jeffcrom

[Pete C]

Interesting point about Evan Parker, I think I'd have to agree, never really heard him as an 'energy' player even when playing fast and furious. Although I definitely agree that Ayler had that wider influence which maybe opened a door for EP to step through from later Coltrane

Well, besides the energy side there is the gospel and blues-drenched lyrical cry to Ayler's playing, as with Ornette, but qualitatively somewhat different. I wouldn't say that necessarily applies to Parker, but it's another angle to consider Ayler's overall influence by, not just the intensity.

[Niko]

surprised to see that noone has voted for joe henderson (my #6 most influential after ayler)

[Jim R]

Dex influenced a few - Ricky Ford comes to mind.

Am I the only one who finds this an odd comment? (the "few" and "Ricky Ford" part). I mean, couldn't we start with... oh, say Rollins and Coltrane?

[flat5]

surprised to see that noone has voted for joe henderson (my #6 most influential after ayler)

Good point! I don't know if his style has been a big influence on a lot of players.

It's not too easy to emulate :-)

He is, however, a very important jazz tenor sax player!

so says me = imho

Edited October 4, 2011 by flat5

[Bill Nelson]

You are Number 6.

"I am not a number, I am a free man."

And besides, they don't allow no honking sax in The Village.

[medjuck]

PLEASE...Listen to Prince Robinson play on/in Immigration Blues. I will not give up.

BTW In the linter notes to "Early Ellington" Steve Lasker says that it's "probably" Prince Robinson.

[Larry Kart]

surprised to see that noone has voted for joe henderson (my #6 most influential after ayler)

Good point! I don't know if his style has been a big influence on a lot of players.

It's not too easy to emulate :-)

He is, however, a very important jazz tenor sax player!

so says me = imho

Yes, he's a big influence in certain circles.

[colinmce]

Honestly after looking over the choices I don't know if there is a fifth to stand directly alongside those four. But if you twisted my arm, I'd vote Shorter: the most distinct without being overly idiosyncratic. I think he did create a whole mood and approach to the tenor and to improvisation in general that has been a significant element in jazz since.

[king ubu]

So is each noisy apeshit free tenor player showing an Ayler influence?

Honestly I'm not so sure... and Ayler went way back, too... there was that amazing piece from Al Sears on a BFT a while ago. Not that far from where Ayler went, I think!

"each noisy apeshit tenor player" - Strong words, my friend.

Hey you all know I LOVE Ayler and many of the others on jeffcron's little list (not Ware though, sorry).

My point was merely that... well, it seemed a bit simple to just call most free/avant players from the 60s and 70s Ayler-influenced. You could just as well call them all Coltrane-influenced and Parker-influenced.

But I see that Jeff isn't taking the easy way out:

Sorry to disagree but there is not a inch of Ayler in Evan Parker (who came completely from Coltrane and was very quickly his own man, faster than, by example, Brötzmann).

I hear you, but what I mean by "influence" might be different from what you mean. I still contend that Parker, who is indeed very much his own man, and who doesn't really sound like anyone but himself, was influenced by Ayler. It seems to me that Ayler's music, even more than Coltrane's, pointed the way to create a jazz-based music without conventional tonality and regular pulse. That doesn't mean that I think Parker sounds like Ayler.

In any case, I'm not alone:

John Fordham, from an article on Ayler in The Guardian music blog:

The unique sound of British total-improv original Evan Parker still has Ayler inflections....

From Parker's own website:

In spite of this major group activity, it is as the creator of a new solo saxophone language, extending the techniques and experiments started by John Coltrane and Albert Ayler, but taking them away from the rhythmically jazz-related areas and into the realm of abstraction, that Evan Parker is perhaps most recognised.

So is each noisy apeshit free tenor player showing an Ayler influence?

I'm disinclined to attempt a response to this.

... so I apologize if my statement might have seemed rude (it wasn't intended thusly at all, again I repeat: I love Ayler and like lots of the others' music, well at least what I know of it, so far).

But still... that quote from Parker's website: "extending the techniques and experiments started by John Coltrane and Albert Ayler" - if not them, someone else, if not him, someone else... I don't see (hear) a particular influence there. Saxophone techniques were extended ever since Hawkins got around to learn how to really play, and likely (Prince Robinson?) even before and by others in the same time. Techniques evolve and go on... Jimmy Lyons was a major innovator and one of the most amazing (technically AND musically speaking) saxophone players whose music I've yet witnessed, yet his beginnings are deeply in Bird. And so are Ayler's roots in R&B from the 40s or whenever... and I can't see a line from there to Evan Parker or other European avantgarde players (regardless if they made use of some technical aspects/extensions that Ayler may or may not have introduced or made more widely known).

[JSngry]

Sorry to disagree but there is not a inch of Ayler in Evan Parker (who came completely from Coltrane and was very quickly his own man, faster than, by example, Brötzmann).

I hear you, but what I mean by "influence" might be different from what you mean. I still contend that Parker, who is indeed very much his own man, and who doesn't really sound like anyone but himself, was influenced by Ayler. It seems to me that Ayler's music, even more than Coltrane's, pointed the way to create a jazz-based music without conventional tonality and regular pulse. That doesn't mean that I think Parker sounds like Ayler.

Yeah, Albert was one of those guys who changed the idea of what "is" could actually be, if you know what I mean. You couldn't avoid him, if only by the possibilities he opened up hanging around in the background in some shadow somewhere, if not for you, then for somebody somewhere listening to you. He's just there, whether you want him to be or not. Denial is an option, but ultimately a fantasy, because it all ends up there anyway, sooner or later, resistance is futile, etc.

All life is the vibration of energy, and prime Ayler was all about the vibration of energy. And once you split the atom, you can't put it back together.

[Chuck Nessa]

All life is the vibration of energy, and prime Ayler was all about the vibration of energy. And once you split the atom, you can't put it back together.

Unfortunately, later Ayler tried to put it back together and failed (giving AA the benefit of the doubt).

[JSngry]

Yep.

[jeffcrom]

... so I apologize if my statement might have seemed rude (it wasn't intended thusly at all, again I repeat: I love Ayler and like lots of the others' music, well at least what I know of it, so far).

Understood! And I understand your larger point, I think, although I don't totally agree with it.

Yeah, Albert was one of those guys who changed the idea of what "is" could actually be, if you know what I mean.

Mr. Sangrey has put it more clearly and succinctly than I was able to.

[Dan Gould]

I went with Hank, though its a wish more than a reality.