Gigi Gryce

[JSngry]

(Yeah, I still want some tangible product too, I am afraid )

Well, see, there you go. Everything else stems from that. You want your music in the form of "product", which is cool, I totally understand, but...let's not pretend that that is still the only option available, and let's not pretend that paying for a needle drop or a lifting of somebody else's mastering is anything other than it is.

Back in the day, some guy tried to get me to either pay him straight up or else let him have his pick from my collection for the "privilege" of dubbing some of his albums. It appears that this guy was just a little ahead of his time....

[mikeweil]

C'mon folks - I'd buy a legit US release of some rare material I have been looking for over the last twenty years any minute - if it were available. I'd never buy any rip-off of the fantastic Charles Mingus Uptown set, and I have asked potential buyers of the Proper Mingus set on German Jazz Forums to buy the Uptown, even if it is more expensive. But I am afraid we are some kind of avant-garde, discographically ... most jazz fans, not matter what age, do not have too deep knowledge about the recording details etc. - that's what I always encounter when I talk to jazz fans over here in shops. Real collectors are rare. The others are easily taken advantage of, and so they are good bait for the European labels.

I see your point - of course I do. But ownership is always responsibilty, and for a label this means to keep the stuff available. It would be easy in the age of downloads, but most labels do not care in the US, don't even know about the treasures in their vaults.

Fresh Sound is not as bad a many think - they reissued rare West Coast stuff when nobody in the US would even think about it! Without them I never would have had an opportunity to listen to hours and hours of fine music. Right now they compile a lot of material the way I would have wished Concord would have done, like the Tiny Grimes Prestige sessions with bonus tracks and all - I bought a lot of OJCs when most members of this forums still underestimated them, but sometimes I wished they would have been more thorough on the research side.

There are many aspect to this debate - the internet age deserves new copyright laws, new attitudes, new morality ... I don't like the Proper boxes - many sessions are not complete etc. I don't like downloads - no liner notes, no credits - that's sleazy, too, IMHO. And I hate the way MP3s sound.

The final question for me is: Is there a release from the original label owner. If it is done right, I will go for it. But if I want to listen to something only available on a Fresh Sound disc, I will go for this just as well. I'd never buy the Hank Mobley set from this Real Gone label, I prefer the Mosaic. I could state many more examples.

Take the Felsted albums - we waited for a Mosaic, but there will be none. So now suddenly we have two alternatives to get these, even the one LP that was never out on CD ... who's to blame? There is no right life in a wrong world ... I'm convinced we all do our best to support those who deserve it, no matter if we buy a Fresh Sound reissue or not.

(Edited for typos)

Edited October 24, 2011 by mikeweil

[ejp626]

There is no right life in a wrong world ... I'm convinced we all do our best to support those who deserve it, no matter if we buy a Fresh Sound reissue or not.

Agree with this. What I don't quite understand is why we keep going round and round on this on nearly everyone one of these threads. It's a discussion going nowhere.

However, I will admit that I appreciate it when someone points out a more legit* avenue for a PD reissue, since I don't always know all the alternatives.

* particularly for Americans.

[JSngry]

"No right life in a wrong world" is made extra-difficult by spending your money when you don't have to, just to get something you want in a package that makes it look like something it's not.

That's all I'm saying.

[Chuck Nessa]

I remember when (in about 1980) Bob Koester (owner of Delmark) asked me how we were expected to compete with budget reissues of Miles, Rollins, etc. He was referring to relatively cheap releases by Fantasy and CBS. Now, after the free download revolution, we have to compete with 8 lps on 4 cds without royalties. New music will suffer. How can any new, or even living, artist have a chance?

[A Lark Ascending]

How did the hand loom weaver stand a chance with the arrival of the power loom?*

It will hurt many individuals who are part of the old way of doing things; but new ways will somehow evolve. Though what comes after won't be exactly like before.

That's not a dig at you, Chuck - I think what you do to keep largely uncommercial music out there is nigh on a miracle.

******

On a separate note, I wonder how much of the distaste towards these cheaper reissues is partly an irritation at seeing exclusivity blown open. Hank Mobley locked up in a limited edition $80 or $130 black and white boxed Mosaic spells 'class' - in the cut-to-the-minimum type reissue with glossy display of album sleeves it becomes just another mass-market product. A bit like Honda producing mass-market Bentleys.

I don't have any problem with the Lonehill's, Proper's etc - what drives me nuts is the daily compilations that appear on the likes of e-music, compiling quite random collections of the same music. Largely because it clutters up the online stores and sows confusion. After all, what does this mean?:

(*Answer - most went out of business and after a period of machine wrecking ended up in the new factories; but a longer term story was that the idea of hand-made cloth was re-branded from 'an out-of-date way to do things' to 'a way to ensure a higher quality using the good old time-honoured methods and individual attention to detail'.)

Edited October 25, 2011 by A Lark Ascending

[David Ayers]

I remember when (in about 1980) Bob Koester (owner of Delmark) asked me how we were expected to compete with budget reissues of Miles, Rollins, etc. He was referring to relatively cheap releases by Fantasy and CBS. Now, after the free download revolution, we have to compete with 8 lps on 4 cds without royalties. New music will suffer. How can any new, or even living, artist have a chance?

And yet, life goes on.

'Albums' are/were a calling-card and not a principal source of revenue for anybody. So the issue of selling recorded music is tangentially related to the promotion of music (in terms of modern jazz: different argument for the 30s - reminding me that you lot have always been all over JSPs from Europe though the same copyright issues apply - and exceptions for maybe Miles and Brubeck).

New music thrives. Brian Eno (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/9608716.stm) seems to be saying something like this. Even as far as recorded jazz music goes, it is not just that ECM as a kind of mainstream-modern label keeps going strong, but many independents put out lots of issues - PSI, Smalltown Superjazz, Intakt, Okka, Jazzwerkstatt, etc. These labels do not make a living for musicians, and it is true that CD music sales are set to decline, but the notion that (perfectly legal) Gigi Gryce reissues from over 50 years ago are affecting, say, Paal Nilssen-Love's professional prospects is wide of the mark.

People love to go to attend concerts of any kind. Everything I ever go to is full. Outside the concert there are CDs on sale. People pre-investigate on youtube, and via d/l legal or illegal. Musicians make plenty out of concerts, little out of records. I guess they don't make much out of the folks here who are proud of all the FLACS they steal, depriving of royalties composers (who it *seems* labels like Real Gone DO pay) as well as in some cases musicians. Look how many people welcomed the Sony issue of the Miles 'bootleg' concert. Those people had already heard the music. That means they stole it, but no-one gives them a hard time about it.

Jonathan Horwich revealed his reissue sales are at about the 1500 mark, if that. Even some years ago I was getting last chance Mosaics which were numbered under 2000. Whatever business labels are doing ('xeroxing other people's work', on a hand-loom presumably, since the producers seem not to be actually composing or playing anything themselves) they are not playing into any kind of mass-market. Which is fine, but it means this stuff is for hobbyists, which is also fine (that includes me), but the implications for the practice of music are not significant. I bought the Mosaic Berigan when the pirate issue was available for peanuts; I own the Three Sounds CDs in cute little reissues from Japan but shan't cry foul over Real Gone's efforts.

Music is doing fine, the market for huge numbers of reissues is very narrow. In any case the sheer number of reissues reflects a kind of over-production that was tied to different times and practices. I actually think jazz and improv do well considering they are so musician-centered... but that's another theme of mine - the over-rating of jazz by 'fans' - which is linked to this of course, but...

[JohnS]

Some good points from Big Beat Steve and David, but back to the thread.

I don't believe potential purchasers of the Gryce set have a lot to worry about. The Garland four cd set comes in a double four cd jewel box and while there are no notes you do get full lineups and recording dates. Sound seems fine to my old ears and on my modest system. If you need this music then this isn't a bad way to get it.

[A Lark Ascending]

Yes, Emanem (which incorporates PSI) seems to have an extraordinary range of recordings, mostly kept in print. And in a quite different field, labels like Woodville and Trio seem closely related to the gigging of the musicians involved. I suspect their main sales come from there; having an outlet via online merchants, however small the rewards, presumably adds a low but steady income on top of the main selling point.

I'm always amazed by the number of classical labels that continue to flourish outside of the majors. One like Dutton Vocalion, which works in a number of niches, but seems to have no problem putting out regular releases of virtually vanished late 19th/early to mid-20thC British classical music (plus some more tonal contemporary music).

[shaft]

Any knowledge about the source for example the Gryce Set?? Have they copied other CDs from japan etc? Needledrops??

The note on covers on Digital Mastering and Enhanced is ususally not true since they do not have access to master tapes. Usually I especially stay away from "enhanced" since it can mean added echo or ambiance on mono recordings.

BTW: I have all of them Gryce CDs already - painstakingly collected over years in good sounding releases. I go for quality because quality lasts.

[Head Man]

On it's UK release date Amazon are showing the set as "temporarily out of stock"!

[romualdo]

Any knowledge about the source for example the Gryce Set?? Have they copied other CDs from japan etc? Needledrops??

The note on covers on Digital Mastering and Enhanced is ususally not true since they do not have access to master tapes. Usually I especially stay away from "enhanced" since it can mean added echo or ambiance on mono recordings.

BTW: I have all of them Gryce CDs already - painstakingly collected over years in good sounding releases. I go for quality because quality lasts.

Interested to know what the source of your Reminiscin' CD is - Japanese? - wasn't aware that this has had a previous digital release

[JETman]

Any knowledge about the source for example the Gryce Set?? Have they copied other CDs from japan etc? Needledrops??

The note on covers on Digital Mastering and Enhanced is ususally not true since they do not have access to master tapes. Usually I especially stay away from "enhanced" since it can mean added echo or ambiance on mono recordings.

BTW: I have all of them Gryce CDs already - painstakingly collected over years in good sounding releases. I go for quality because quality lasts.

Interested to know what the source of your Reminiscin' CD is - Japanese? - wasn't aware that this has had a previous digital release

It hasn't. Does anyone else get the irony?

[shaft]

Any knowledge about the source for example the Gryce Set?? Have they copied other CDs from japan etc? Needledrops??

The note on covers on Digital Mastering and Enhanced is ususally not true since they do not have access to master tapes. Usually I especially stay away from "enhanced" since it can mean added echo or ambiance on mono recordings.

BTW: I have all of them Gryce CDs already - painstakingly collected over years in good sounding releases. I go for quality because quality lasts.

Interested to know what the source of your Reminiscin' CD is - Japanese? - wasn't aware that this has had a previous digital release

It hasn't. Does anyone else get the irony?

You are quite right - it has no official digital release and hence I do not have it I overlooked that album in the box.

[JETman]

Irony: Some of the most active music traders on this board are taking a blatant "holier than thou" stance with regard to the whole "paying the dead musician's estate" debate. See the resident dick's (you KNOW who you are) post above.

Edited October 25, 2011 by JETman

[JSngry]

Some of the most active music traders on this board are taking a blatant "holier than thou" stance with regard to the whole "paying the dead musician's estate" debate.

Hey Silky, does your board software translate the posts into a different language than they're written in, or what?

And who are these "most active traders", anyway?

[JETman]

Some of the most active music traders on this board are taking a blatant "holier than thou" stance with regard to the whole "paying the dead musician's estate" debate.

Hey Silky, does your board software translate the posts into a different language than they're written in, or what?

And who are these "most active traders", anyway?

I wasn't born yesterday, and I wasn't necessarily speaking about you. Are you having guilt pangs?

Don't get all slick just because your Nolan Ryans are up 3-2. The last one is always the most difficult to win.

[JSngry]

wow

[David Ayers]

Can now be ordered direct from Music Melon (http://www.musicmelon.co.uk/gallery.asp?collectionid=13).

[Brad]

Although I'm late to this party, I'm tending to feel the same way as Jim. Something doesn't feel quite right. It is obviously all subjective but just because it's legal doesn't make it right. The Mobley seems to be the most egregious example that I've seen so far.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Brad

[Big Beat Steve]

The Mobley seems to be the most egregious example that I've seen so far.

O.K., then please set me wise, Brad:

Why is it the Mobley in particular that makes you feel uneasy:

- Are there recordings that are less than 50 years old as of the reissue date? If so, yes - that would be illegal even by non-US standards if no royalties were being paid.

- If not, why him in particular? Is it that the heroes of hard bop seem to merit special protection?

- If so, why? Would music being particularly dear to one's heart be any reason for "reasoning" like this?

- Otherwise, why wouldn't you feel just as uneasy about the other examples cited farther above and elsewhere in this kind of threads where it SEEMS (no proof possible, after all) fairly obvious where the source material of budget-priced re-reissues has been lifted from? (i.e. from other reissues with largely the same tracks that had appeared not that long before and are commonly known and accessible)

A CANDID answer would probalby help advance this debate.

[JETman]

Although I'm late to this party, I'm tending to feel the same way as Jim. Something doesn't feel quite right. It is obviously all subjective but just because it's legal doesn't make it right. The Mobley seems to be the most egregious example that I've seen so far.

Yes, I agree as well. What I was pointing out is that some of the people getting so enflamed about this issue are the ones who have gladly accepted burns of needledrops and pressed cds without paying money for them. As such, the artists STILL are not being compensated for their work under either scenario. As a lawyer, I'd expect that you would fully understand the degree of this hypocrisy. I'm not making judgments here. Just saying to those same people: Quit while you're ahead, and be smart and know when to STFU!!!

[sonnymax]

...See the resident dick's (you KNOW who you are) post above.

Ooh! Ooh! I hope it's me. I hope it's me.

Edited October 26, 2011 by sonnymax

[JSngry]

Although I'm late to this party, I'm tending to feel the same way as Jim. Something doesn't feel quite right. It is obviously all subjective but just because it's legal doesn't make it right. The Mobley seems to be the most egregious example that I've seen so far.

Yes, I agree as well. What I was pointing out is that some of the people getting so enflamed about this issue are the ones who have gladly accepted burns of needledrops and pressed cds without paying money for them. As such, the artists STILL are not being compensated for their work under either scenario. As a lawyer, I'd expect that you would fully understand the degree of this hypocrisy. I'm not making judgments here. Just saying to those same people: Quit while you're ahead, and be smart and know when to STFU!!!

For the record, my argument in this thread has never been about royalties. It's been about how pwned a consumer is for paying money to somebody for something they could get for free. or in many cases, legitmately. I'm pretty sure a lot of this stuff is still in print, and what's not still in print, you can find through Your Friend & Mine, The Internet, or through Friendly Collector Circles. If it's in print and you want it bad enough, buy it. Period. If it's not in print and you can't afford "collector's prices", show a little initiative, get over the technophobia, and realize that somebody somewhere has made the same material that you're willing to pay these skeezers good money for available for free. The "you can't get this anywhere else" argument is fallacious in the extreme extreme.

The royalties thing is about how immoral are you willing to be at any given time, and what do you do to compensate for it. "No perfect life in an imperfect world", etc. Whole 'nother discussion there.

This argument is about just how big a sucker are you, anyway?

Edited October 26, 2011 by JSngry

[Big Beat Steve]

This argument is about just how big a sucker are you, anyway?

You do realize your BASIC line of "reasoning" could apply to ANY downloadable piece of music, even if in its "regular" (tangible) form it would be 100% legit and royalty-paying? You can always get something cheaper somewhere out there if that's all that matters to you.

In the same manner you even could call anybody a "sucker" who'd pay twice or three times the price a reissue by buying a JAPANESE reissue instead of a European/U.S. one. Sound imnprovement can't 200 or 300% better, right? Or is it a case of fetichism?