Gigi Gryce

[JSngry]

This argument is about just how big a sucker are you, anyway?

You do realize your BASIC line of "reasoning" could apply to ANY downloadable piece of music, even if in its "regular" (tangible) form it would be 100% legit and royalty-paying? You can always get something cheaper somewhere out there if that's all that matters to you.

No, I didn't realize that. Thanks for making me aware!

In the same manner you even could call anybody a "sucker" who'd pay twice or three times the price a reissue by buying a JAPANESE reissue instead of a European/U.S. one. Sound imnprovement can't 200 or 300% better, right? Or is it a case of fetichism?

I'd only call them a sucker if they paid good money (or any money) for a knockoff of the original instead of an original.

So back to the beginning - how big a sucker are you, anyway?

[JSngry]

I'll even add this bit of nuance, based on personal experience - go ahead and be a sucker if you're too lazy and/or not inspired enough by the material to look for stuff like this anywhere else.

Just don't claim that you're not a sucker and/or not lazy and/or just don't give a big enough damn about the music at hand to pay real money for real issues.

To think that paying some jiveass jakeleg group anything to make some CD rips and needledrop dubs for you is "perfectly acceptable" is an insult to everybody, especially to yourself. To say, "hey, I know it sucks, but ya' know, I just don't give enough of a shit about this particular music to go hunting for it any other way", well, that's at least honest.

And if it's an entirely economic decision, if you really can't afford it, then definitely use the internet, and save your money for when you can start exercising some intellegent financial discretion. Pissing away your money on stuff like this only delays when that time can come.

[Larry Kart]

Or is it a case of fetichism?

Stephan Fetich had that problem.

[Big Beat Steve]

I'll even add this bit of nuance, based on personal experience - go ahead and be a sucker if you're too lazy and/or not inspired enough by the material to look for stuff like this anywhere else ....

Ah well ... luckily I've been around here long enough to have become fairly familiar with your line ... affected "streetwise" attitude or vulgarity, at any rate it doesn't add tons of credibility that way, you know ...

Those 360° blasts at certain reissue labels and practices sound more (as mentioned earlier by somebody else in this thread) that there is a deep feeling of "loss of exclusivity" at work.

Anyway, as for shelling out real money, who are you judge with CERTAINTY who is a REAL cheapo and who isn't and who therefore deserves being paid for what kind of money? (No, I am not talking about those 8-CD sets discussed here only) After all legit releases have been known to have shoddy presentation, abysmal playing time and sub-par remastering too - and STILL they charge full price or more.

As for who can afford to pay what, paying full price for something that YOU (of all persons) feel that it does NOT merit full price certainly does not mean that those who pay that money are the cheapskates around. After all you could do MUCH cheaper than that but prefer not to so evidently you're not being that stingy ...

OTOH, saying NO to grossly overpriced reissues is just being sensible, not being cheap. A case of steering a sensible middle ground ... on the basis of what value for money looks like it is a fair deal to the buyer. Something to decide about individually and something that I would call "intelligent financial discretion" . Just like with ANY other purchase of goods meant to last in your everyday life.

But in case you want to have ONE example of MY line of thinking - NO, I'd never have bought that Bird and Diz 1945 Town Hall CD from any of those "jumping on the bandwagon" Johnny-come-lately labels but only from Uptown because the question of who was coyping whom was just too obvious. But on the other hand I was very pleased (and felt excedingly comfortable) with picking up the reissue of Rusty Bryant's early Dot LPs on the Lonehill label because nobody else ever bothered about resurrecting that material on accessible sources that may have looked "legit" to fellers like you.

So ... if you want to go look for your kind of "suckers", look among those who drool about their oh so precious hard bop etc. "legit" reissues but do not find anything wrong with covering their borderline interest areas (such as bop or swing) with cut-price P.D. boxes. Judging from previous recommendations seen around here, there are PLENTY of them around ...

"Holier than thou"? Indeed. Hypocrisy? Too.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

I'd never claim to be holier than anybody. Good LORD no!

But smarter? It's times like this I gotta wonder...

[JSngry]

But on the other hand I was very pleased (and felt excedingly comfortable) with picking up the reissue of Rusty Bryant's early Dot LPs on the Lonehill label because nobody else ever bothered about resurrecting that material on accessible sources that may have looked "legit" to fellers like you.

You do know that that material was released in Japan before Lonehill copped it, right? And that the Japanese issues were available (and may still be) on torrent sites?

How do I know this? Because, like you, I saw this set and thought, hey, I'll make an exception here, no toehr way to get this stuff. Then I got the generic liner notes & photos, blah blah blah and felt kinda took. Then I found out about the Japanese issues and felt a little pissed off. Then I found out about the torrent sites and felt like a total sucker. Which, of course, I was.

Live and learn!

[JETman]

...See the resident dick's (you KNOW who you are) post above.

Ooh! Ooh! I hope it's me. I hope it's me.

If you've lurked or posted around here long enough, you'd be sure of who I was talking about.

Edited October 26, 2011 by JETman

[JSngry]

Those 360° blasts at certain reissue labels and practices sound more (as mentioned earlier by somebody else in this thread) that there is a deep feeling of "loss of exclusivity" at work.

No...think about it - if "loss of exclusivity" was at work, why would anybody be pointing out the option of getting the material in the exact same format (needledrops and CD rips) for free instead of paying for it in some halfass cardboard box?

Do European PD laws mandate that eligible material actually be sold?

In another thread, Mr. Lowe is singing the praises of another PD label, one that adds value by providing quality work of their own enterprise. With that type of enterprise, there can be no quarrel!

But this stuff (and Proper, and Lonehill, and all the other leeches)...it's an easy way out for all concerned. Easy and cheap. We all like easy and cheap, but when we start defending them as anything but...

World gone even more wrong, that is.

[JETman]

As usual, Jim, your reasoning is seriously convoluted, and seriously faux "streetwise". Climb off it and man up already!

[Big Beat Steve]

You do know that that material was released in Japan before Lonehill copped it, right? And that the Japanese issues were available (and may still be) on torrent sites?

How do I know this? Because, like you, I saw this set and thought, hey, I'll make an exception here, no toehr way to get this stuff. Then I got the generic liner notes & photos, blah blah blah and felt kinda took. Then I found out about the Japanese issues and felt a little pissed off. Then I found out about the torrent sites and felt like a total sucker. Which, of course, I was.

Live and learn!

Sorry, no. I don't like torrent sites (and do not have to make any excuses whatsoever for that) and I do have my own opionion about the pricing policy and pricing level of many Japanese CDs by the time they reach these shores ... (I would have been - and in fact have been - willing to take the plunge in lots of cases with vinyl, but CDs???) - not very often enough value for money for me there, given the hassle in getting them - sorry ... Apart from the fact that this particular CD was obviously OOP by the time I bought my Lonehill copy.

Though I was not exactly overwhelmed with the Lonehill liner note layout either ...

But hey ... there ARE "legit" CDs who seem to take pride in doing even worse...

As for the "other" PD label mentioned by Allen Lowe, no discussion, no objection ... (see my earlier post mentioning them in connection with a re-reissue by another box set label surprisingly often hailed here, BTW ).

Edited October 26, 2011 by Big Beat Steve

[mikelz777]

The basis for my interest in these sets is pretty much the price though it's always nice to pick up a bundle of great music by an artist. I have the Gryce set on order and paid $13.48 delivered. Sure, all but one of the titles in the set are available individually on the internet but just a quick look on Amazon for those 7 titles and I would have been paying around $150.00 for them and I'd still be missing the one title. I don't know anyone who has this music to make copies for me nor can I solicit such from anyone here. I'm not interested in any non-CD version of the product so I see this set as a great deal. The quality of theses kind of sets has never been a problem with me. I have yet to be disappointed by the sound on any of the various bargain sets I've purchased over the years. Maybe a handful of (older recording) songs within the larger body of songs may have had a sound quality where I might notice a slight difference but all have been very listenable if not excellent to my ears. Even very listenable is preferable to not having it at all. Liner notes and such make little difference to me. I've probably only read about 1/2 to 3/4 of the notes of all the "legitemate" recordings I own and for the most part, care little about them once I've read them the first time. I guess I must be the bargain issuers target audience.

Even at these great prices, I was on the fence about The Three Sounds set. Even though I had none of them in my collection other than on a Stanley Turrentine and a Lou Donaldson recording, I had other stuff in my collection that would scratch that same itch and decided to pass. While poking around, I happened upon a seller offering a new set for $8.55 delivered so I decided to take the plunge on that bargain. I'd be happy to report on both once I receive them and get the chance to listen.

Edited October 26, 2011 by mikelz777

[sonnymax]

...See the resident dick's (you KNOW who you are) post above.

Ooh! Ooh! I hope it's me. I hope it's me.

If you've lurked or posted around here long enough, you'd be sure of who I was talking about.

Aw crap! I never win anything.

[JETman]

...See the resident dick's (you KNOW who you are) post above.

Ooh! Ooh! I hope it's me. I hope it's me.

If you've lurked or posted around here long enough, you'd be sure of who I was talking about.

Aw crap! I never win anything.

With a little effort, I'm positive you too can attain "dick" status.

[jazzbo]

In my opinion John there's nothing false about Jim's "street-wise" talk if you want to categorize it as such. A man who has spent more than two decades being a musician as his only employment, and has been a participant and co-producer of several cds, had his liner notes published. . . yeah, that's street cred in the music world to me. And I've been in the same room with him several times, and exchanged more words with him outside this board than on it, and I'll attest to his, what I consider, myself, brilliance.

Just had to say it because the personal attacks are getting heavy and in this case unfounded.

Edited October 26, 2011 by jazzbo

[JSngry]

...See the resident dick's (you KNOW who you are) post above.

Ooh! Ooh! I hope it's me. I hope it's me.

If you've lurked or posted around here long enough, you'd be sure of who I was talking about.

Aw crap! I never win anything.

Well then, climb off the manup and just TRY HARDER!

In my opinion John there's nothing false about Jim's "street-wise" talk if you want to categorize it as such. A man who has spent more than two decades being a musician as his only employment, and has been a participant and co-producer of several cds, had his liner notes published. . . yeah, that's street cred in the music world to me. And I've been in the same room with him several times, and exchanged more words with him outside this board than on it, and I'll attest to his, what I consider, myself, brilliance.

Just had to say it because the personal attacks are getting heavy and in this case unfounded.

John(?) just needs to come to Texas, walk the streets (and dirt roads, and gravel roads, and interstate hi-ways, and wooded paths, beaten and otherwise) with us, and learn how to talk right, that's all.

But not in the summer. That's INDOOR time!

[mjzee]

The record business is a funny business. There's always the possibility that you'll buy the record and not enjoy it. Who do you go to then? Also, there's no way to hear a lot of this music in advance, to even form an opinion. A good example is the early Stan Getz material on Verve. Long before the recent Getz box was announced, I bought the Lonehill version (packaged under Bob Brookmeyer's name), and found I really enjoyed the music. Then when the Getz box came out, I was struck by how much better the sound quality was, and I bought it. I doubt I would've bought the box if I hadn't first owned the "Brookmeyer" package. I suppose guilt over having bought the Lonehill was a factor in buying the Getz box, but it was only one of the factors.

[JSngry]

The record business is a funny business. There's always the possibility that you'll buy the record and not enjoy it. Who do you go to then? Also, there's no way to hear a lot of this music in advance, to even form an opinion. A good example is the early Stan Getz material on Verve. Long before the recent Getz box was announced, I bought the Lonehill version (packaged under Bob Brookmeyer's name), and found I really enjoyed the music. Then when the Getz box came out, I was struck by how much better the sound quality was, and I bought it. I doubt I would've bought the box if I hadn't first owned the "Brookmeyer" package. I suppose guilt over having bought the Lonehill was a factor in buying the Getz box, but it was only one of the factors.

Couldn't agree more, actually, only that I've come to use the internet to get my "audition copies" for older, "archival" material. It's saved me from a lot of what would have been unsatisfying purchases, and freed up a lot of cash for what I know I want.

More informed purchasing with less physical clutter. The Internet IS your friend!

[GA Russell]

It has always been my impression of darknet music downloads that there is a good chance you will pick up a virus. Is that no longer the case?

[sonnymax]

Well then, climb off the manup and just TRY HARDER!

Your governor doesn't believe in evolution, and you want me to engage in devolution? 'taint gonna happen, buckaroo.

[JSngry]

My states' governor governs a state comprised of a lot of people who resist governance in general, especially by that particular governor!

[JSngry]

It has always been my impression of darknet music downloads that there is a good chance you will pick up a virus. Is that no longer the case?

It's still Wide Open Spaces, but if you don't get greedy, have good, current protection(s), and stick to trusted, proven sources, it's a pretty safe ride. But there is a learning curve...not too steep, but...

Let me put it this way - if you're at some Russian (just an example) site that has a lot of flashing ads for phone sex and cheap ED pills and floating ads for some game you've never heard of coming at you right and left, get the hell out of there ASAP, I don't care if they do claim to have a download of that never-issued-on CD Gigi Gryce album waiting for you. You don't need it THAT bad, ya'know? And run a total system scan immediately afterwards.

Best/safest bets are the so-called "sharity" blogs, of which there are many that are well-established & can be trusted. They do what they do out of a genuine desire to share difficult to find music. The ones that offer damn near anything and everything, stay away from them. They might be safe, but they ain't right, if you know what I mean.

Torrents...definitely more, damn near infinite, options in torrent-land.I'm not that much of a fan myself, but if you get somebody who's conversant with that whole world, it can be pretty safe too. In other words, have a kid around.

You definitely need to excercise caution and discretion, have a good, well-protected system, and be able to resist temptation. Anything you download should be looked at as an audition copy only, in my opinion. If you like it, do the right thing by the right people if/when the option comes available. If you don't, delete it off your hard drive.

[Dan Gould]

...See the resident dick's (you KNOW who you are) post above.

Ooh! Ooh! I hope it's me. I hope it's me.

If you've lurked or posted around here long enough, you'd be sure of who I was talking about.

Talk about manning up, stop being a pussy and identify this supposedly defective human being.

And if its me, a pre-emptive hale and hearty F.U.

[Brad]

Man, there's so many things going on this thread and they don't all involve this reissue!

[JSngry]

Man, there's so many things going on this thread and they don't all involve this reissue!

Epitomic O-Board!!!

[felser]

Anything you download should be looked at as an audition copy only, in my opinion. If you like it, do the right thing by the right people if/when the option comes available. If you don't, delete it off your hard drive.

That's always been my philosophy on burns/copies. If it comes along at a price I would have bought it for without having the copy, I buy it, not letting the fact that I have the copy overtly influence the decision.