Musicians Whose Playing Has Gotten Better with Age

[fasstrack]

Interesting choices, C.J. Worth looking into. Very sad about Mike Brecker. He should've just then been slowing down, enjoying the fruits. I thought Pilgramage deeply felt. He must've been in deep physical/psychic pain. He just WILLED that music to happen. I enjoyed Tales of the Hudson too. It was playing on the car radio and I was so intrigued when at my destination I asked my friend to tune in so we could find out who, what, where. Metheny was on that too.

[CJ Shearn]

Brecker had more records planned after the completion of "Pilgrimage". Of course Clark Terry was playing great until his health issues, Stanley Turrentine, Milt Jackson never lost it. Kenny Burrell has gotten better too. "Tales from the Hudson" is a great record, though my favorites are his self titled and "Pilgrimage". Sonny Rollins, Wayne, Ornette. Someone had mentioned Roy Hargrove, I think he reached his maturity when he recorded "Crisol". Latest thing I have with him is 10 years old "Directions in Music: Live at Massey Hall". Kenny Garrett's playing has gotten more intense as he's older.

[Gheorghe]

Chet Baker.

I always thought that his recordings and live performances (if he did appear!) during the late 70´s and 80´s were much better than the stuff from 53 or 54 when he was so famous.

Baker himself stated that he thought that his playing had become better during the later period, than during the early days when he was everybody´s favourite.....

[fasstrack]

Kenny Burrell is much more enjoyable since his playing calmed down-around the time of Togethering w/Grover Washington Jr. He always had a great, full sound, warmth-and is a very complete, rounded musician. But through all thore earlier recordings-some more than others-his time feel to me was nervous and rushy w/less than great control that made him sound choppy. It swung and was bluesy, but not really relaxed and mature like Jimmy Raney, Grant Green (though he's a way better musician than Lazybones Grant), or Eddie Diehl. Listen to 2 Guitars. Kenny is louder and 'fireier' but Jimmy is way more relaxed and mature. But he settled down and I really enjoy hearing Kenny now. He's a master.

[colinmce]

Just an aside, but Hargrove's big band album Emergence is wonderful.

[Big Beat Steve]

Not wanting to spoil your fun at all, but following this thread and the increasing number of names mentioned here, somehow it is beginning to seem as if EVERY jazz musician of note got better with age unless he

a) "died before he got old",

b) limited himself to commercial work and remained happy with that,

c) swallowed drugs to an extent where the physical limits of what any human organism can stand really had been transgressed for good,

d) lived to an old age where for inevitable physical reasons the chops just COULD not be there any more.

Sort of predictable, isn't it?

Edited June 18, 2012 by Big Beat Steve

[fasstrack]

Not really predictable. There's as much variance story to story as personalities and cirmcustances involved. Musicians are only people.... Except for Buddy Rich....

Edited June 19, 2012 by fasstrack

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Stanley Turrentine, Milt Jackson never lost it.

I agree about Stanley. He, like Jaws, Fathead and Teddy Edwards, never really 'improved' - they continued doing what they did suprbly all their lives.

I don't agree about Milt Jackson, though. To me, Milt started out as pure Bebop player but, from the late fifties on, he expanded his horizons greatly, taking on Soul Jazz and swing and making wonderful records with Ray CHarles, Stanley Turrentine, Cannonball, Horace SIlver, Wes Montgomery, Gene Harris, Hawk and others. And, of course, in a different direction, the MJQ. The more Milt I hear, the more I hear a man with a completely open mind about music. And that's a later development.

MG

[flat5]

Harold Land became more complex. He changed. Like with Benny Golson I preferred his earlier tone.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Harold Land became more complex. He changed. Like with Benny Golson I preferred his earlier tone.

Like other tenor players in the sixties, Land had what we used to call a 'Coltrane retread'. Frank Foster did, too.

MG

[Pete C]

Chet Baker.

I always thought that his recordings and live performances (if he did appear!) during the late 70´s and 80´s were much better than the stuff from 53 or 54 when he was so famous.

Baker himself stated that he thought that his playing had become better during the later period, than during the early days when he was everybody´s favourite.....

I agree totally. The later trumpet playing is sublime. The fifties recordings appeal to me more for Chet's singing (much better back then) and for Russ Freeman's fabulous piano playing.

Harold Land became more complex. He changed.

Many sax players changed in the wake of Trane. I once saw a James Moody concert where he played bebop on alto and flute but had a Traneish modal approach on tenor.

Many piano players changed in the wake of Bill Evans. I think Marian McPartland is a good example.

[CJ Shearn]

That's true Bags broadened his scope, even doing some of those LA slick sessions on Pablo in the 80's. My favorite later Milt has to be "Cherry", "Montreux '77", the albums with Ray Brown in Japan and at Ronnie Scott's (London Bride/Mostly Duke/Memories of Thelonious Sphere Monk) I thought the Very Tall Band reunion was good also.

[Larry Kart]

Not wanting to spoil your fun at all, but following this thread and the increasing number of names mentioned here, somehow it is beginning to seem as if EVERY jazz musician of note got better with age unless he

a) "died before he got old",

b) limited himself to commercial work and remained happy with that,

c) swallowed drugs to an extent where the physical limits of what any human organism can stand really had been transgressed for good,

d) lived to an old age where for inevitable physical reasons the chops just COULD not be there any more.

Sort of predictable, isn't it?

Off the top of my head, and speaking only for myself and my own tastes, I would say the something close to the opposite is true. That is, leaving aside your a,b,c, and d, and a variety of other social factors, most players don't get better with age. This I would attribute to the difficulty of balancing out/processing the freshness of youthful inspiration with/against the self-reflective qualities that may come with age and a largish body of experience.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

That's true Bags broadened his scope, even doing some of those LA slick sessions on Pablo in the 80's. My favorite later Milt has to be "Cherry", "Montreux '77", the albums with Ray Brown in Japan and at Ronnie Scott's (London Bride/Mostly Duke/Memories of Thelonious Sphere Monk) I thought the Very Tall Band reunion was good also.

My favourite late Milts are 'Soul believer' on which he sings - beautifully - 'Night mist' with Jaws and CLeanhead and the 2 Kosei Nenkin albums with Teddy Edwards.

MG

[Dan Gould]

Not wanting to spoil your fun at all, but following this thread and the increasing number of names mentioned here, somehow it is beginning to seem as if EVERY jazz musician of note got better with age unless he

a) "died before he got old",

b) limited himself to commercial work and remained happy with that,

c) swallowed drugs to an extent where the physical limits of what any human organism can stand really had been transgressed for good,

d) lived to an old age where for inevitable physical reasons the chops just COULD not be there any more.

Sort of predictable, isn't it?

Sweets Edison, until the very end, kept doing the exact same thing he ever did. I loved it, but I wouldn't say in any way that he got better with age.

[mjb]

I find it tricky making these qualitative assessments but Kenny Wheeler, to these old ears, just gets more and more interesting.

[Pete C]

With most brass players there are diminishing returns in chops/embouchure after a certain age that don't generally seem to affect reed players. I think with reed players the downside is on breathing and sometimes intonation, but there are so many reed players who kept strong and vital sounds into their 80s or even 90s.

[Big Beat Steve]

@Larry Kart + Dan Gould:

Of course I was exaggerating deliberately in my above post (in view of the seemingly endless number of name musicians rattled off while only touching the tip of the iceberg ... or so these posts read ...)

[AllenLowe]

Barbara Carroll. One of my favorite pianists.

[Pete C]

Frank Morgan. He had lots of time to woodshed.

[Larry Kart]

Frank Morgan. He had lots of time to woodshed.

Never much liked Morgan, especially after his return. He played IMO like the con-man he was. Never forget the time he opened at the Jazz Showcase in its Blackstone Hotel era with Willie Pickens, Wilbur Campbell, and a bassist whose name I forget, maybe Dan Shapera -- the house rhythm section. After the first set, Morgan took the guys aside and began to berate them for not following his supposed cues. This seemed odd to me because there had been, as usual, no time for rehearsal, and the program was all standards, familiar bop lines, and blues. Finally, Wilbur had had enough and softly but firmly told Frank to go f--- himself -- quite unusual behavior for Wilbur, I believe. Later, Willie, who knew Frank well from their Milwaukee days, explained what was up. Frank was neurotically fearful of failure, as usual, and had tried to beat up the rhythm section to make up for his anxiety. BTW, the rhythm section had played just fine.

[Pete C]

I thought Morgan became a great ballad player.

[Dan Gould]

"Con-man" Larry? As in, not really a musician at all, just pretending to be one? That's harsh and highly inaccurate if you ask me. To each their own, you don't like his playing, makes no never mind to me. But I do note that you hold against him his own neuroses, rather than pointing out any specific artistic short-comings.

[JSngry]

I thought Morgan became a great ballad player.

This.

[Larry Kart]

"Con-man" Larry? As in, not really a musician at all, just pretending to be one? That's harsh and highly inaccurate if you ask me. To each their own, you don't like his playing, makes no never mind to me. But I do note that you hold against him his own neuroses, rather than pointing out any specific artistic short-comings.

I said "con-man" because in order to do their work con artists typically must pretend to have emotions (i.e. deep concern for those they aim to bilk) that they don't actually have, and there was something about much of Morgan's "comeback" era playing that gave me that feeling -- in particular, that the overtly emotional gestures in his playing seemed to be just that, something separate from rather than the inevitable outgrowth of the musical flow. I should add, though I can't be wholly sure about this, that I think I had this feeling before rather than after after I became aware of the details of Morgan's criminal career.