bertrand Posted June 16, 2013 Report Share Posted June 16, 2013 (edited) I'm trying to sort through this. It's a bit confusing because some of the pieces have several titles. The CD Frankfurt Special on Fresh Sound shows the following (all from 1954): Simone I Anything Goes Yogi Frankfurt Special Mon Petit (I Never Knew) Blue Skies Lover Man Diagram Tracks #1-8: Recorded in Frankfurt, on April 13, 1954. Cleopatra Variations Don’t Worry About Me Ghost Of A Chance Laura What’s New Tracks #9-14: Recorded in Frankfurt, on April 24, 1954. Frankfurt Special Don’t Worry About Me Simone II Morning Fun Tracks #15-18: Recorded in Köln, on July 28, 1954. Mon Petit (I Never Knew) Frankfurt Special Tracks #19-20: Recorded Live at the Deutsche Jazz Festival, Frankfurt, on June 6, 1954. Then there is New Faces - New Sounds from Germany on Blue Note (leased session). It's dated 4/24/54 but has 8 tracks: the 6 dated 4/24/54 shown on the Fresh Sound, plus 'Blue Skies' and 'Mon Petit'. Then there is a recording called Das Is Jazz dated 6/4-6/54 with some tracks with Hipp. Then there is a CD called Cool Dogs And Two Oranges from 4/13/54 and 7/20/54. There are 12 tracks. 5 of the titles are the same as the 4/24/54 Fresh Sound session (no 'What's New'). 4 of them ('Simone', 'Anything Goes', 'Yogi' and 'Mon Petit') have the same titles as tracks on the 4/13/54 Fresh Sound session, 3 do not ('Cool Dogs', 'Two Oranges', 'Frankfurt Bridges'). Finally, the new Lost Tapes CD has sessions dated 1952, 1953 and 1955. 1) Are the 'Blue Skies' and 'Mon Petit' on the Fresh Sound dated 4/13/54 the same as those on the Blue Note dated 4/24/54? 2) Are the 5 tracks with identical titles that are on the Fresh Sound dated 4/24/54, the Blue Note dated 4/24/54 and the Cool Dogs (date unclear) all the same? 3) Are the 4 tracks on Cool Dogs that have the same titles as tracks on the Fresh Sound dated 4/13/54 the same performances? 4) Are the 3 other tracks on Cool Dogs the same as tracks on the Blue Note/Fresh Sound under different titles? 5) Am I correct in assuming that none of the tracks on Das Is Jazz or Lost tapes appear on either Cool Dogs, the Blue Note or the Fresh Sound? In other words, could there be a mix-up with the dates? 6) Am I correct in assuming the Japanese Joki Freund CD is identical to Cool Dogs? Very confusing... Bertrand. Edited June 16, 2013 by bertrand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted June 16, 2013 Report Share Posted June 16, 2013 Yeah, I didn't really get this all sorted out prior to reviewing the new Lost Tapes CD and the Jazzhus CD (which is the old L+R LP, Cool Dogs & Two Oranges). I think the later quintet with Emil Mangelsdorff and Joki Freund is more "essential" listening, but I suppose that's not what discography threads are about. Here is the text from my NYC Jazz Record review: Most people have a picture of postwar (then-West) German improvised music as excoriating the horrors of Hitler and asserting the country’s aesthetic independence from American music and art – witness the work of reedmen Peter Brötzmann and Alfred Harth, trombonist Albert Mangelsdorff, pianist Alexander von Schlippenbach and trumpeter Manfred Schoof. Of course, in Nazi Germany, jazz and improvisation was seen as low culture (ditto abstract art), so in the years following the war, those “base” modalities were often accentuated to improbable heights. It is with this in mind that the music of pianist-composer Jutta Hipp (1925-2003) is worth considering; born and raised in Leipzig, she fled to Munich during the Russian occupation, concentrating on painting and instrumental studies. In the early to mid-‘50s, she worked with saxophonist Hans Koller, guitarist Attila Zoller, and trumpeter Charly Tabor, eventually leading her own small groups and relocating to the States for a series of three well regarded Blue Note twelve-inches (including Jutta Hipp with Zoot Sims, BN 1530, 1956). What are presumably Hipp’s first recordings have surfaced on The German Recordings 1952-1955 (a Jazz Haus archival LP). Here she’s joined on ensemble numbers by Zoller, Koller, trombonist Albert Mangelsdorff and tenorman Joki Freund. The rhythm sections consist of either Franz Roeder or Harry Schell on bass and Karl Sanner or Rudi Sehring on drums. The first side consists of 1952 live recordings either in trio or with Koller added; they’re a bit low fidelity and the feel is slightly stiff, especially on the trio tracks. That said Hipp’s distinctiveness is apparent from the opening “Blues after Hours” as her left hand insistently roils and her right appropriates a minimal, pointillist boogie-woogie. On “Errol’s Bounce,” Hipp’s lines move deliberately and could bog, though offset by enough flourishes to remain jaunty. Introducing Koller’s pillowy tone to the proceedings gives the music a gooey uncertainty, especially on a clambering “You Go to My Head,” which seems to inspire Hipp to delve deep and flourish. Albert Mangelsdorff’s composition “Sound-Koller” opens the second side, crisp studio recordings apparently made for Brunswick in 1954 that offer elegant motivic interplay from the horns as inklings of the Tristano-school influence on this sector of German jazz become clear. Two of the final four tracks add Zoller and Freund is on tenor, including the particularly spry “Daily Double,” though the bright and somewhat atonal piano features they bookend are truly indicative of an assured new face. Under the direction of famed German jazz producer Horst Lippmann, Hipp recorded a fine and individual quintet around the same time that showed the pianistic influences of Lennie Tristano and Kenny Drew. Supported by Karl Sanner and bassist Hans Kresse and featuring Joki Freund and altoist Emil Mangelsdorff (elder brother of Albert), half of these tunes first appeared on the Blue Note ten-inch LP New Faces – New Sounds from Germany before being reissued in their entirety by L+R Records in 1980 (they later appeared on an out-of-print L+R CD as well as in an expanded but unauthorized Fresh Sound edition). The program is a mixture of originals and standards, including Frank Foster’s “Simone,” “Don’t Worry About Me,” “Ghost of a Chance,” “Laura,” and Cole Porter’s “Anything Goes.” The horns interweave and recall Lee Konitz and Ted Brown at first, though Freund’s steely tone is concentrated in the lower register and seems closer to, say, Pepper Adams’ baritone. Mangelsdorff is incisive and charged, ready to burst forth once the heads are played through. Like Tristano, Hipp limits the solo structure to piano and reeds, so if the bass and drums are to “swing,” it isn’t discernible through significant solo opportunities. That said, Kresse in particular chugs like Paul Chambers, giving robust motion to the nearly atonal foxtrot of the opening “Yogi.” “Frankfurt Bridges” has an inflected, slinky push while “Simone” lends itself perfectly to the quintet’s sped-up Tristano-like knots, Mangelsdorff howling with jubilance over the changes. Hipp is often a florid player, though economical, and packs a lot of ideas into the short soli these three-minute tunes offer (moreso on the few trio numbers). While at first the music of the quintet seems aligned with “cool jazz,” the group is certifiably exuberant and signifies steps toward freedom (in the broad sense) across these fascinating bebop nuggets. Of these two unearthed sets, this disc is perhaps the closest to being essential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted June 17, 2013 Report Share Posted June 17, 2013 The Hipp is pretty much all on Spotify. I *started* trying to work out the answers to bertrand's questions but..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted June 17, 2013 Report Share Posted June 17, 2013 answer to bertrand's question 1 is yes answer to 2 is yes 3 is yes after that... life is too short Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted June 17, 2013 Report Share Posted June 17, 2013 oh wait answer to 4 is yes they are frankfurt bridges is blue skies cool dogs is frankfurt special two oranges is lover man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted June 17, 2013 Report Share Posted June 17, 2013 (edited) 5 - tracks from lost tapes are not on the fresh sound or the blue note, at least the ones i checked..... can't identify das is jazz on spotify, if it is here it has a different name Edited June 17, 2013 by David Ayers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted June 17, 2013 Report Share Posted June 17, 2013 On a related topic, while I'm sure Peter will not feel too cheered about having his stuff ripped off, I wonder if he can at least take some solace in the name recognition of this latest PD venture... More use could and should have been made of him back in those days. Superior quality, please note. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted June 17, 2013 Report Share Posted June 17, 2013 (edited) This IS difficult indeed, mainly because some titles were recorded several times and some were mistitled here and there. And dates HAVE been mixed up From what I recall offhand (and what seems to be confirm the above), most of the Blue Note LP (6 of the 8 tracks I believe) are on the Cool Dogs & Two Oranges LP (on the L&R label). The "Lost Tapes" recordings aren't all lost. There are a couple of releases (two on the LP and a couple more on the extra tracks on the CD) that were originally issued on Brunswick (some originally credited to Hans Koller IIRC). But they don't duplicate the Bue Note/Cool Dogs.../Fresh Sound releases as far as I can see. As far as I can remember the "Das is Jazz" LP (I have the original at home) again includes the odd Jutta Hipp track from those Brunswick sessions that were originally released on EPs in Germany. Can check later but I think David Ayers has answered the gist of it all perfectly - so these few lines just to confirm what he says and what I'd found out by checking for myself some time ago. BTW, kudos for that excellent review, not least of all for pointing out that German jazz did NOT start with Schlippenbach, Brötzmann, Mangelsdorff (Albert, that is) and their ilk. Far from it. And the earlier ones weren't all "derivative", as DB would have been wont to say ... (at least not more than a good deal of the US output of those days too) Edited June 17, 2013 by Big Beat Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted June 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2013 You guys are amazing! Thanks. Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted June 17, 2013 Report Share Posted June 17, 2013 Just to make it more confusing, "Cleopatra" is listed as "Chloe-patra" on the COOL DOGS issue / reissue. That is, title variations aside, one presumes these two tracks are identical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted June 17, 2013 Report Share Posted June 17, 2013 Just to make it more confusing, "Cleopatra" is listed as "Chloe-patra" on the COOL DOGS issue / reissue. That is, title variations aside, one presumes these two tracks are identical. This was one of the mistitlings I was alluding to in my post. Bruyninckx indiactes both spellings refer to one and the same track and recording and he lists the "Chloe-Patra" version specifically for the L&R LP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etherbored Posted June 17, 2013 Report Share Posted June 17, 2013 in other news, this has to be one of the most offbeat covers ever.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted June 17, 2013 Report Share Posted June 17, 2013 Ha, yes, it is brutal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted June 18, 2013 Report Share Posted June 18, 2013 Not if you regularly came across the entire L&R record catalog in your jazz bins in the record shops when these LPs were current. They often had this kind of play on words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonewall15 Posted June 18, 2013 Report Share Posted June 18, 2013 Where does the 1955 MGM LP E3137 "Cool Europe" with Jutta Hipp and Mike Nevard fit into the previous discussions? Her songs are: Simone, Lover Man, Cool Dogs, Diagram, Anything Goes, Brotherly, Yogi, and If I had You. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted June 18, 2013 Report Share Posted June 18, 2013 That's the"Cool Dogs & Two Oranges" content that is NOT part of the reissue from the Blue Note 10in LP. Or to sum it up another way: Essentially the 50s MGM and Blue Note releases made up the later reissue on "Cool Dogs & Two Oranges" on L&R. Mike Nevard is a separate (co-billed) act on that MGM vinyl - no connection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonewall15 Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 I just checked the "Cool Dogs & Two Oranges" MP3 listing on Amazon. 4 songs from the MGM E-137 LP are not listed: Lover Man, Diagram, Brotherly, and If I Had You. Does this mean that these 4 songs are not available anywhere except on the MGM LP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 Well, Lover Man and Diagram also are on the "Cool Europe" EP (MGM X282 (US) or MGM EP535 (UK)) but I suppose this not what you are after. They also are on the Fresh Sound reissue mentioned in one of the first posts ni this topic above. But to my knowledge that's it (though I find it hard to believe that the remaining two have not been reissued elsewhere), and if you check out the above NYC Jazz Record Review for the "Jutta Hipp with Joki Freund 1954" (Jazzhus) CD, while this draws from the L&R recordings that the MGM releases also come from, they are not included on that reissue either: See here: http://www.groovecollector.com/mp/jutta-hipp-with-joki-freund-1954/r/115562285/ At least that's what I have come up with. Maybe "Brotherly" is another one that went under another name on other L&R reissues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 As was posted above, Two Oranges(L&R) is Lover Man (same version?) and together with Diagram it is found on the Fresh Sound CD as well - no clue about multiple takes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romualdo Posted June 20, 2013 Report Share Posted June 20, 2013 (edited) Here's my 2c worth the liner notes (have a photocopy) to the MGM LP (3157) state that on "If I Had You" we have Mangelsdorff (tb), Koller (ts), Hipp (p), Roeder (b), Sanner (dm) - a different lineup from the rest of the LP (except for "Brotherly") This title may have been from a Koller led session as these same 5 musicians recorded a few sessions over May/June 53 The Koller New Jazz All Stars Vogue session (10" LD 144) of May/June 53 has an unreleased version of "If I Had You" (Lord Discography) There are 4 unreleased titles listed in the Lord Disco (K3496-13) "If I Had You", "Fine & Dandy", "Hi Beck" & "Lonesome Rd" It looks like the recently released Jazzhaus CD has three titles from this session i.e. "What's New", "These Foolish Things", & "Lonesome Rd" I've listened to both versions of "What's New" (Vogue Digipak & Jazzhaus CDs) & they sound identical with same timings "Lonesome Rd" tees up but "These Foolish Things" is not mentioned I'm wondering if the unreleased version of "If I Had You" is the same as the MGM LP version - It's the same musician lineup "Brotherly" is another tricky one The liner notes to 3157 state that the principal musicians on this title are Emil & Albert Mangelsdorff The Lord Disco does not list any sessions including Emil, Albert & Jutta (none on the Jazzhaus CD either), "Brotherly" is not even on the Lord database - maybe a different title? This one is a mystery Edited June 20, 2013 by romualdo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted August 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2013 Digging up this thread - I'm trying to put composer credits on some of these tunes. For anyone who was the Frankfurt Special CD on Fresh Sound, who is listed as composer on the following: Simone I Yogi Diagram Variations Simone II Morning Fun I don't think either 'Simone' is the Frank Foster tune, and in fact I think these are two different tunes. Thanks, Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head Man Posted August 11, 2013 Report Share Posted August 11, 2013 (edited) Digging up this thread - I'm trying to put composer credits on some of these tunes. For anyone who was the Frankfurt Special CD on Fresh Sound, who is listed as composer on the following: Simone I Yogi Diagram Variations Simone II Morning Fun I don't think either 'Simone' is the Frank Foster tune, and in fact I think these are two different tunes. Thanks, Bertrand. Simone I - Emil Mangelsdorff Yogi - Joki Freud Diagram - Olsen Variations - Jutta Hipp Simone II - Emil Mangelsdorff Morning Fun - Zoot Sims Edited August 11, 2013 by Head Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted August 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2013 Thanks! No first name is give for Olsen? Bertrand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head Man Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 (edited) Thanks! No first name is give for Olsen? Bertrand. Nope....sorry. Edited August 12, 2013 by Head Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 "Simone" was the name of Emil Mangelsdorff's wife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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