Tonny Bennet - SINGS FOR 2 + SINGS STRING OF HAROLD ARLEN

[Big Beat Steve]

You see, the point really just is that in very, very many cases those Japanese reissues are damn hard to get (at least from Europe) unless you really monitor the Japanese scene day in and day out and are willing to put up with ordering procedures that can be a real hassle. And many go OOP faster than you can say "Hiroshi Tanno".

In short, to many collectors over here many of them just as well never existed, really.

[king ubu]

The thing is, if you've buying other stuff, have rough plans of what you want to get when, it's just impossible to do Japanese at the same time, too ... either you save your money and then run to buy the next fifty, or by the time you'll have the first dozen, there will be 200 new ones out, and a year later, they're all gone again ... so there's that. I did get a couple of Toshiba's EMI reissues though and enjoy them (not speaking of audio crap, just got them because they were not around elsewhere), but usually it's a bit of a hassle even with items I really want. That may just be my feelings about it, but well yeah, there's that.

And sorry Hans, of course I was joking!

[gmonahan]

I'm absolutely with Hans when it comes to the Andorrans ripping off legitimate reissue labels. I think it's nasty, and I won't buy that stuff. I had no idea the Japanese had ever reissued any of those John Graas records. I do wish some of those Japanese reissues didn't require a second mortgage on my house.

gregmo

[Big Beat Steve]

I'm absolutely with Hans when it comes to the Andorrans ripping off legitimate reissue labels.

The point is ... it's not only the Andorrans/Spanish if you care to look closely and compare.

[J.A.W.]

JSP, Proper, etc.

[gmonahan]

I meant all of 'em. Especially too bad about JSP, which used to be a very, very fine reissue label.

gregmo

[David Ayers]

You know what, Fresh Sound do a great job. Use it or lose it.

It's a labor of love and it's legal. Like Mosaic. A lot of that Mosaic stuff is PD over here so if I thought like you guys...

[J.A.W.]

You know what, Fresh Sound do a great job. Use it or lose it.

It's a labor of love and it's legal. Like Mosaic. A lot of that Mosaic stuff is PD over here so if I thought like you guys...

With the difference that the material that is released by Mosaic is licensed by the owners of the rights, public domain or not. That is not the case with public-domain labels.

Edited September 26, 2013 by J.A.W.

[David Ayers]

You know what, Fresh Sound do a great job. Use it or lose it.

It's a labor of love and it's legal. Like Mosaic. A lot of that Mosaic stuff is PD over here so if I thought like you guys...

With the difference that the material that is released by Mosaic is licensed by the owners of the rights, public domain or not. That is not the case with public-domain labels.

Those rights do not pertain in Europe, so it is the same thing.

[J.A.W.]

You know what, Fresh Sound do a great job. Use it or lose it.

It's a labor of love and it's legal. Like Mosaic. A lot of that Mosaic stuff is PD over here so if I thought like you guys...

With the difference that the material that is released by Mosaic is licensed by the owners of the rights, public domain or not. That is not the case with public-domain labels.

Those rights do not pertain in Europe, so it is the same thing.

What I meant is that they not only pay licensing fees for material that is still copyrighted in the United States, but also for recordings that are in the public domain over there. In Europe licensing fees for public-domain material are paid by the German Bear Family label. There really is a difference in my view.

[Chuck Nessa]

All I wish to add is Fresh Sounds issues (and their ilk) stop issues from original sources. I am aware of this happening in a number of cases. "Fan boys" can love them and (some) professionals can see them as the enemy.

[jazzbo]

I've been afraid that this was the case in the past, and thanks for verfiying it Chuck. If the material were to come out from original sources they would sound better and be better annotated (possibly) and this is a plus for the collector and fan as well as possibly a revenue for the estate of the musician or musician. I've never really been that impressed with the sound of any Fresh Sound release.

[J.A.W.]

All I wish to add is Fresh Sounds issues (and their ilk) stop issues from original sources. I am aware of this happening in a number of cases. "Fan boys" can love them and (some) professionals can see them as the enemy.

That's also what I've been told.

I've been afraid that this was the case in the past, and thanks for verfiying it Chuck. If the material were to come out from original sources they would sound better and be better annotated (possibly) and this is a plus for the collector and fan as well as possibly a revenue for the estate of the musician or musician. I've never really been that impressed with the sound of any Fresh Sound release.

Agreed.

Edited September 26, 2013 by J.A.W.

[king ubu]

All I wish to add is Fresh Sounds issues (and their ilk) stop issues from original sources. I am aware of this happening in a number of cases. "Fan boys" can love them and (some) professionals can see them as the enemy.

That's also what I've been told.

I'm kind of two-fold here ... so much stuff is rotting (or has been lost already) in the vaults of the majors and they don't give a sh*t, literally.

But still, when I have a choice and don't need to sell a kidney, I do go for the official release.

Anyway, when I see Freshsound and others ripping off small labels like Mode/VSOP or Uptown or Mighty Quinn, that really pisses me off big time, and to me it's ample proof (if any more is needed) that the pretending-to-be-good-saviour-chap(s) there are in it only for the money ... if they were the true fans and stuff, as Pujol pretended in some intereview that was discussed here, too, he'd simly not, ever, rip off any small label.

Not sure what my stance regarding Fantasy is ... Concord cares a tiny little bit, but not really ... and loads of stuff are OOP, so I understand those who do that route. I picked up most of the OJCs I wanted while they were around, but others couldn't, so ...

But:

[...] I've never really been that impressed with the sound of any Fresh Sound release.

Agreed.

I fully agree in this respect!

[Teasing the Korean]

On the other hand, the EU public domain loophole - when it was 50 years - also presented an opportunity for the majors to work with independent labels to release niche titles less expensively and with good quality sound. I'm not sure this ever happened.

If the majors were too clueless or stubborn to release this stuff - and it was probably a combination of both - screw them.

There are a lot of albums I would love to hear from the original master tapes, but I don't want to wait until I'm 90 to hear them.

[JSngry]

You know what, Fresh Sound do a great job. Use it or lose it.

Lose what, the opportunity to pay a stranger to do what a friend will do for free?

[J.A.W.]

On the other hand, the EU public domain loophole - when it was 50 years - also presented an opportunity for the majors to work with independent labels to release niche titles less expensively and with good quality sound. I'm not sure this ever happened.

And how did that loophole present that opportunity exactly? I never knew there was a connection. Please explain.

[Teasing the Korean]

And how did that loophole present that opportunity exactly? I never knew there was a connection. Please explain.

The major labels whined that there wasn't enough interest in fringe titles to justify manufacturing the discs and booklets. They could have chosen to license recordings to independents, just as they have done with vinyl reissue labels, such as Scorpio.

[J.A.W.]

And how did that loophole present that opportunity exactly? I never knew there was a connection. Please explain.

The major labels whined that there wasn't enough interest in fringe titles to justify manufacturing the discs and booklets. They could have chosen to license recordings to independents, just as they have done with vinyl reissue labels, such as Scorpio.

You still haven't explained what that's got to do with the EU 50 year "loophole".

[Teasing the Korean]

Because the record companies knew that, album by album, their back catalogs would begin to enter the public domain. If they chose to ignore their desirable out-of-print titles falling into the public domain - for whatever reasons - they knew that Euro indies would hop on those titles and release them, from whatever source was available, good or bad.

Any of the majors could have entered into reciprocal arrangements with one or more specialty indie labels to supply masters for the indies to release on CD, just as Columbia did with Scorpio for their LP reissues. Informed listeners like you and I would have happily purchased these authorized versions over dubious releases mastered from vinyl.

If Sony/Columbia chose to authorize vinyl releases of such obscure titles as Phil Moore's "Portrait of Leda," Andre Popp's "Delerium in Hi-FI," Michel Magne's "Tropical Fantasy" and Rex Kona's "Wild Orchids," why not license them for CD? Sony still has not released any of these to my knowledge. And these are just 4 examples off the top of my head.

[J.A.W.]

Because the record companies knew that, album by album, their back catalogs would begin to enter the public domain. If they chose to ignore their desirable out-of-print titles falling into the public domain - for whatever reasons - they knew that Euro indies would hop on those titles and release them, from whatever source was available, good or bad.

Any of the majors could have entered into reciprocal arrangements with one or more specialty indie labels to supply masters for the indies to release on CD, just as Columbia did with Scorpio for their LP reissues. Informed listeners like you and I would have happily purchased these authorized versions over dubious releases mastered from vinyl.

If Sony/Columbia chose to authorize vinyl releases of such obscure titles as Phil Moore's "Portrait of Leda," Andre Popp's "Delerium in Hi-FI," Michel Magne's "Tropical Fantasy" and Rex Kona's "Wild Orchids," why not license them for CD? Sony still has not released any of these to my knowledge. And these are just 4 examples off the top of my head.

That's an assumption, or was there some research done? I'm not saying you're wrong, there might be some/much truth in it, but it's still an assumption. Anyway, thanks for your explanation.

[Teasing the Korean]

It's certainly not an assumption with regard to one Euro indie that I know. This label has reached out to the majors over the past decade to license obscure recordings that were never on CD, and they have not worked with them.

[J.A.W.]

It's certainly not an assumption with regard to one Euro indie that I know. This label has reached out to the majors over the past decade to license obscure recordings that were never on CD, and they have not worked with them.

I meant that the connection you made with the EU 50 years loophole is an assumption (though it might be correct), not that indies contacted majors for licensing agreements.

Edited September 27, 2013 by J.A.W.

[David Ayers]

What I meant is that they not only pay licensing fees for material that is still copyrighted in the United States, but also for recordings that are in the public domain over there. In Europe licensing fees for public-domain material are paid by the German Bear Family label. There really is a difference in my view.

Really can't agree. If material is public domain it is publically owned. That means that no-one can claim to own the license in those territories. Any payment made to the former license owner is a voluntary donation. If Bear Family do that then...it's curious, but it has no implications for what anyone else should do. I am sure Sony and Universal are grateful for the donations. Likely it has more to do with payment for access to original sources, but that is another discussion. Bear Sound's generosity to major corporations doesn't make Fresh Sound's activities illegal - they plainly are not.

[king ubu]

It's certainly not an assumption with regard to one Euro indie that I know. This label has reached out to the majors over the past decade to license obscure recordings that were never on CD, and they have not worked with them.

I meant that the connection you made with the EU 50 years loophole is an assumption (though it might be correct), not that indies contacted majors for licensing agreements.

Well, I guess it's just that they could have made *some* money by licensing stuff that's like 45 years old, instead of waiting until it became PD? And by licensing they'd not have to do the work and carry the risk themselves.

I very much see the point Chuck made above, about other reissues being stopped by stuff like Lonehill put it out (not sure if Mosaic ever considered a third Hodges box, for instance, but I guess with the Lonehill series, that's out of question ... but then again, the music in the first Hodges box has been PD for a while an no one really bothered to do it right, since Mosaic ... there's Fresh Sound and there's Avid sets, but as usual both don't even try and makesense in a way that they *add* to what's around officially, instead, they do the usual combination of stuff around and stuff that's rare, so that if you buy them, you'll end up buying - and spending money on - twice as many discs as you'd really need ... that's another of those abominable Fresh Sound practices, combine a rare one with an easily available one and have people buy it over and over again, just so they can get the rare one - another point for me that shows they're not the good type but the money-making clever and often disingenuous one).