New Heretical Statement re: Coltrane / Stitt

[JSngry]

I bet Miles was scared shitless at some level. All of a sudden he got a taste of where the leading edge - from within his own idiom - was going to be, and he was behind it. Just like that, he was behind the leading edge instead of in front of it.

I still maintain that the yeas between Trane & HerbieRonTony were years of conflict for Miles, he had a very easy and lucrative path ahead of him maintain the cooler than cool thing, Harmon mute, twobeatintochingchingaching, I mean, that WAS Miles Davis, he owned it, the money was there, and I think that made him happy. But then, he'd become, like, an Oscar Peterson for hipsters, and I don't think that made him happy.

It took him a while to decide, and decide he did. But I bet when heard Trane that night, he was probably thinking, somewhere, oh shit, this. I can be snide about Ornette and Cecil and all that, but THIS? This is Coltrane, this is my thing, and THIS is where it's gonna go? Oh shit.

Trane was like, ok, you nagged me into this gig because you wanted Coltrane, so ok, THIS is Coltrane. and Miles had to have been scared shitless, because Miles knew.

Miles knew. Miles was vain and all that, Miles dug fame and fortune, but Miles always knew. Miles took over the "energy" chair when Sonny Stitt was on the next go-round, why was that? Because Miles knew. Miles was always drug with Hank, why was that? Because Miles knew. Nothing personal against Hank, I'm sure, but Miles knew. Miles finally said fuck it, I gotta move, why was that? Because Miles knew.

It's like when your first wife leaves you because she gotta move, and you know she gotta move and you know you gotta move, but dammit, how dare she leave you, so you either keep looking for more a good enough ways to stay where you are (and hey, how much happiness does that ever bring anybody, really?), or at some point you deal with it, and figure out how to move on your own damn self.

Paris, 3-21-1960, that was where your first wife tells you that she's moving on with you or without you, shows you where she's going and tells you why, shows you why, says this, motherfucker, THIS, and you, you either gonna vomit from the gutpunch or else sublimate the vomit by any means necessary. Because denial is futile, resistance fatal. But hey, you da' man, right?

[johnblitweiler]

I bet Miles was scared shitless at some level. All of a sudden he got a taste of where the leading edge - from within his own idiom - was going to be, and he was behind it. Just like that, he was behind the leading edge instead of in front of it.

Looks like Miles, all his life, saw where the leading edge was and reacted against it. Bop, Parker? Miles invented a contrary modern jazz, birth of the cool. Hard bop, with its soul and little big bands? Miles' contrary music was the Gil Evans works on the one hand, his evolving quintet, including the radical Trane, on the other hand. Was Ornette's freedom now the leading edge? Folks, here are modes, easier for your digestion. Yet in spite of Miles' nastiness toward Ornette, Miles' quintet, as Hancock pointed out, evolved to become Ornettelike. The subsequent years of fusion adventures, nearing half of his musical life, were a retreat of sorts.

Leading, retreating, so what. He played a lot of the best music ever.

[AllenLowe]

listening to Stitt on some of those is interesting but odd; to me he sounds like he is not really sure what he is doing there; moments of verty sharp concentration, then some meandering; boredom on some of the more modal pieces.

[JSngry]

I bet Miles was scared shitless at some level. All of a sudden he got a taste of where the leading edge - from within his own idiom - was going to be, and he was behind it. Just like that, he was behind the leading edge instead of in front of it.

Looks like Miles, all his life, saw where the leading edge was and reacted against it. Bop, Parker? Miles invented a contrary modern jazz, birth of the cool. Hard bop, with its soul and little big bands? Miles' contrary music was the Gil Evans works on the one hand, his evolving quintet, including the radical Trane, on the other hand. Was Ornette's freedom now the leading edge? Folks, here are modes, easier for your digestion. Yet in spite of Miles' nastiness toward Ornette, Miles' quintet, as Hancock pointed out, evolved to become Ornettelike. The subsequent years of fusion adventures, nearing half of his musical life, were a retreat of sorts.

Leading, retreating, so what. He played a lot of the best music ever.

Zero even semi-argument about that, because, again, Miles knew.

What made/makes him such an interesting "musical personality" is how things played out when what he knew and what he did were out of sync, how they eventually, always, really, got back in sync. Plenty of that in the "fusion" arcs too, pre- and post-retirement.

[sgcim]

I can definitely relate to some of the comments made about Trane's playing not fitting the group or the songs after a certain period.

I heard one live date on KCR where I wanted to shut the radio off after hearing Trane mangle the changes and mood of the song, but then thank God, Cannonball brought things back to the real shit.

[Chuck Nessa]

Bummer for you.

[Brad]

Thank goodness we have but I never considered both together. Different styles, different playing.

[Adam]

What's the version of this to locate?

[erwbol]

4 digipaks in paper slipcase. Discs also released individually.

Detailed information at discogs.

A cheaper option would be this new release on Fremaux.

discogs

amazon.fr

Does anyone know if the Fremaux release is legit?

fremaux.com

Edited December 12, 2014 by erwbol

[Gheorghe]

I love Trane on that tour. Wynton Kelly too. Stitt is ok but after listening to Trane...... And knowing a bit about Steve Voce I doubt if he likes any Coltrane.

Of course, great musicians. But somehow I think Trane in 1960 didn´t fit to Wynton Kelly. Wynton was a great player, with one exception: His solos on "Walkin´". Anyway it became boring to have "Walkin´" on almost each live album from that time, but Kelly´s piano on all of the Walkin´versions sounds like some "happy piano for people without problems"..... that´s how I feel it. Kelly sounds much better to me on other tunes, especially on the medium tempo stuff, where his pretty piano really fits in.....

[paul secor]

I bet Miles was scared shitless at some level. All of a sudden he got a taste of where the leading edge - from within his own idiom - was going to be, and he was behind it. Just like that, he was behind the leading edge instead of in front of it.

Looks like Miles, all his life, saw where the leading edge was and reacted against it. Bop, Parker? Miles invented a contrary modern jazz, birth of the cool. Hard bop, with its soul and little big bands? Miles' contrary music was the Gil Evans works on the one hand, his evolving quintet, including the radical Trane, on the other hand. Was Ornette's freedom now the leading edge? Folks, here are modes, easier for your digestion. Yet in spite of Miles' nastiness toward Ornette, Miles' quintet, as Hancock pointed out, evolved to become Ornettelike. The subsequent years of fusion adventures, nearing half of his musical life, were a retreat of sorts.

Leading, retreating, so what. He played a lot of the best music ever.

I'm pretty much with you on this one, John.

[AllenLowe]

see my previous comments - Stitt is a mess on some of this; can I be the only one who hears this? It's like at times he stops and thinks, "what is this thing called?" Seriously; his playing lacks continuity and conviction except in very brief spurts.

Edited December 12, 2014 by AllenLowe

[CraigP]

I bet Miles was scared shitless at some level. All of a sudden he got a taste of where the leading edge - from within his own idiom - was going to be, and he was behind it. Just like that, he was behind the leading edge instead of in front of it.

Looks like Miles, all his life, saw where the leading edge was and reacted against it. Bop, Parker? Miles invented a contrary modern jazz, birth of the cool. Hard bop, with its soul and little big bands? Miles' contrary music was the Gil Evans works on the one hand, his evolving quintet, including the radical Trane, on the other hand. Was Ornette's freedom now the leading edge? Folks, here are modes, easier for your digestion. Yet in spite of Miles' nastiness toward Ornette, Miles' quintet, as Hancock pointed out, evolved to become Ornettelike. The subsequent years of fusion adventures, nearing half of his musical life, were a retreat of sorts.

Leading, retreating, so what. He played a lot of the best music ever.

I like where you're going with this, but what do you mean when you say his fusion years were a retreat?

[clifford_thornton]

For whatever reason I didn't get to the Miles/Coltrane Olympia set until a couple of years ago. Coltrane is incredible and in stark contrast to the rest of the band. Really fantastic music.

[johnblitweiler]

I bet Miles was scared shitless at some level. All of a sudden he got a taste of where the leading edge - from within his own idiom - was going to be, and he was behind it. Just like that, he was behind the leading edge instead of in front of it.

Looks like Miles, all his life, saw where the leading edge was and reacted against it. Bop, Parker? Miles invented a contrary modern jazz, birth of the cool. Hard bop, with its soul and little big bands? Miles' contrary music was the Gil Evans works on the one hand, his evolving quintet, including the radical Trane, on the other hand. Was Ornette's freedom now the leading edge? Folks, here are modes, easier for your digestion. Yet in spite of Miles' nastiness toward Ornette, Miles' quintet, as Hancock pointed out, evolved to become Ornettelike. The subsequent years of fusion adventures, nearing half of his musical life, were a retreat of sorts.

Leading, retreating, so what. He played a lot of the best music ever.

I like where you're going with this, but what do you mean when you say his fusion years were a retreat?

Craig, I think a retreat strictly in terms of his trumpet playing - the simplified phrases, the dissipated solo forms over one-chord settings with lively rhythm sections.

[JSngry]

But what about the use of the wah-wah to not just cover up perhaps deteriorating chops issues, but also to turn the trumpet into a combination plunger/blues harp? One step backward, two steps forward?

The plunger thing is more or less conventional wisdom these days, but the harp thing didn't really strike me until the other day when I was singing in the shower, trying to do a Sonny Boy thing and it came out sounding like electricwhawah Miles instead. I thought to myself, damn, that was easy, to take that one thing and turn it into that other thing. But if Miles hadn't already done it, I'd never have noticed.

So yes, shower regularly, with or without premedicated musical intent.

[Guy Berger]

Also not getting the "intended to irritate" conclusion...that's driving in the same lane used to take the Anti-Jazz exit, and is that still on the map/GPS? My tax dollars NOT at work, then.

For the record, the French audience was far from universally "irritated". Marchel Ivery was actually there that night (he was in the army, stationed in or around Paris), as was Brownie IIRC, and yes, some people were pissed. But many were thrilled.

As far as his bandmates, I imagine they were scared shitless, which would not be an inappropriate reaction. It was, and remains, some scaryass playing. But it was not a stunt, nor was it a snub. It was Coltrane throwing down, full force, where he was going to go, period.

Whatever Miles said after the fact, let's look at the fact that after Trane left, Miles went through a bunch of people who player "regular" and was unhappy with them all until he went to Sam Rivers, with whom he was still unhappy, and George Coleman, with whom he was at least not unhappy, and then finally Wayne, and, oh, ok, there it was, again, finally.

So if the point being implied is that Trane was simply playing, and therefore behaving, like a petulant child on this gig, then I'm calling bullshit, and calling it collect. This was the John Coltrane playing with Miles Davis Quintet, not the Ralph Marterie Orchestra, or some such, "knowing your place" was not part of the deal, not like that, and even if it was, Coltrane knew his place, and occupied it proudly and onwardly. There are no epidurals in real time music, sometimes that shit is gonna hurt as it rips you open, sorry.

"Professionalism"? Is that the issue? Hell, Miles missed a gig and Trane played the set without him. Problem, officer?

****** T H I S ******

Also, if Miles was terribly unhappy with Coltrane's playing in the spring of 1960, why did he invite him back to play on Someday My Prince Will Come?

I bet Miles was scared shitless at some level. All of a sudden he got a taste of where the leading edge - from within his own idiom - was going to be, and he was behind it. Just like that, he was behind the leading edge instead of in front of it.

Looks like Miles, all his life, saw where the leading edge was and reacted against it. Bop, Parker? Miles invented a contrary modern jazz, birth of the cool. Hard bop, with its soul and little big bands? Miles' contrary music was the Gil Evans works on the one hand, his evolving quintet, including the radical Trane, on the other hand. Was Ornette's freedom now the leading edge? Folks, here are modes, easier for your digestion. Yet in spite of Miles' nastiness toward Ornette, Miles' quintet, as Hancock pointed out, evolved to become Ornettelike. The subsequent years of fusion adventures, nearing half of his musical life, were a retreat of sorts.

Leading, retreating, so what. He played a lot of the best music ever.

John, agreed with everything you said... up until the 'subsequent years of fusion adventures' being a 'retreat'. You could make a pretty strong case that 1969-1975 was about as far out on the leading edge as MD ever got.

But what I like about the tour with Stitt is how Miles stepped it up on those dates - as if, since Coltrane wasn't there to set off fireworks, Miles decided he'd better do it himself.

Also wanted to highlight this great observation by Jeff!

Obviously it's a matter of taste whether someone prefers Cannonball or Coltrane on the 1958-59 recordings. But it's pretty clear who *Miles* preferred as a ballad player - only one saxophonist plays on "Blue in Green".

[JSngry]

Also, if Miles was terribly unhappy with Coltrane's playing in the spring of 1960, why did he invite him back to play on Someday My Prince Will Come?

Booty call to the ex, hoping (at some level) for some make up sex, but willing to settle for just getting to touch that ass one more time and doing it in front of your current girlfriend makes it that much more obvious to all concerned.

You think I'm kidding, and yeah, ok, but...when you bond with a player or a group and it breaks up because one partner just can't go on with you like that, still the love, always the love, but not gonna be the partnership ever again, no, not gonna be the partnership, it runs deep sometimes. This shit is personal.

[David Ayers]

To my mind, Miles was all about good musicians marketing an idea of sophistication to audiences who had a few spare dollars - the 1969-1975 groups played palatable jams that could fit in as support for high-earning rock groups. No cutting edge. No one got cut. A few folks took a cut.

[Brad]

Also, if Miles was terribly unhappy with Coltrane's playing in the spring of 1960, why did he invite him back to play on Someday My Prince Will Come?

Booty call to the ex, hoping (at some level) for some make up sex, but willing to settle for just getting to touch that ass one more time and doing it in front of your current girlfriend makes it that much more obvious to all concerned.

You think I'm kidding, and yeah, ok, but...when you bond with a player or a group and it breaks up because one partner just can't go on with you like that, still the love, always the love, but not gonna be the partnership ever again, no, not gonna be the partnership, it runs deep sometimes. This shit is personal.

Makes a lot of sense. One can underestimate these feelings.

[jazzbo]

To my mind, Miles was all about good musicians marketing an idea of sophistication to audiences who had a few spare dollars - the 1969-1975 groups played palatable jams that could fit in as support for high-earning rock groups. No cutting edge. No one got cut. A few folks took a cut.

Personally I think there's a lot more than that to Miles '69 to '75.

[Guy Berger]

To my mind, Miles was all about good musicians marketing an idea of sophistication to audiences who had a few spare dollars - the 1969-1975 groups played palatable jams that could fit in as support for high-earning rock groups. No cutting edge. No one got cut. A few folks took a cut.

David, I generally enjoy reading your contributions here and have nothing against you personally - but either you misunderstood what I meant by "leading edge", or you're completely nuts!

Edited December 13, 2014 by Guy

[David Ayers]

To my mind, Miles was all about good musicians marketing an idea of sophistication to audiences who had a few spare dollars - the 1969-1975 groups played palatable jams that could fit in as support for high-earning rock groups. No cutting edge. No one got cut. A few folks took a cut.

David, I generally enjoy reading your contributions here and have nothing against you personally - but either you misunderstood what I meant by "leading edge", or you're completely nuts!

Oh! I just picked up the general vocabulary, I wasn't thinking about your 'as near as he ever got' qualification - just agreeing with John Litweiler's observation about Miles and mainstreaming.

[JSngry]

To my mind, Miles was all about good musicians marketing an idea of sophistication to audiences who had a few spare dollars -

Wynton's being extra generous with the bonus checks this year, eh? :g :g

[sgcim]

To my mind, Miles was all about good musicians marketing an idea of sophistication to audiences who had a few spare dollars - the 1969-1975 groups played palatable jams that could fit in as support for high-earning rock groups. No cutting edge. No one got cut. A few folks took a cut.

For further reading on this, read Whitney Balliet's essay, "On The Corner- Miles Davis Sells Out"- it's merciless!