Lee Morgan At The Both/And Club June 1970

[mrjazzman]

I thought I had every Lee Morgan recording as leader/sideman. Can someone tell me about this release. The liner notes do give some info. It was recorded just prior to the Lighthouse set.

[JohnS]

This came out on Fresh Sound as "Live at the Lighthouse" and said to be outtakes from The Lighthouse.  Maupin put the record straight when nothing was found in the Blue Note archives.

[Dan Gould]

I like it just as much as the Lighthouse set, but why shouldn't I?

[l p]

a must-have if you like late period morgan. it's an audience recording. the audience is a bit too loud, but the audience interaction with the morgan's solos, especially on willow weep for me, makes the music that much more exciting. and can't go wrong with 2 versions of ceora and a speedball.

[l p]

This came out on Fresh Sound as "Live at the Lighthouse" and said to be outtakes from The Lighthouse.  Maupin put the record straight when nothing was found in the Blue Note archives.

does maupin claim that all the lighthouse rejected takes listed at the link below no longer exist in the blue note vaults?

http://www.jazzdisco.org/lee-morgan/discography/#700710

 

[B. Clugston]

It's a nice set. I don't believe the location has ever been conclusively determined—Maupin says Both/And but the piano sounds the same as the Lighthouse.

[JohnS]

The Maupin quote came from an unattributed footnote to this session in Lord.  

 

[Rooster_Ties]

Isn't this the source for the only Lee Morgan version of the Maupin tune "The Chief"? - the studio version being on the still UNreleased half of that one Morgan session that was used as bonus tracks on "The Sixth Sense"?

iirc

[sidewinder]

I remember originally buying the Fresh Sound set thinking that this was a reissue of the Blue Note 'Live at the Lighthouse' and being initially disappointed with the sonics. Can't argue with the quality of the music though - it's up to the standard of the Blue Note set. I subscribe to the 'Both/And' gig being the origin of this one, although that is an interesting comment above about the piano sonics - radio airshot?

Edited July 18, 2015 by sidewinder

[l p]

does lord list the rejected tunes from the lighthouse that are listed at

http://www.jazzdisco.org/lee-morgan/discography/#700710

[l p]

'soul tv', nyc    1-28-72  I remember Britt
audio of this is on Fresh Sound  Lee Morgan - We Remember You
the rest of this video program (Angela and The Sidewinder) used to be on youtube

[JohnS]

The quote in Lord appears in Bob Belden's note to Morgan's Lighthouse set.  

At a quick glance the unissued pieces listed in the notes to the Blue Note set more or less tie up with Lord

[l p]

maupin's statement seems confusing since the rejected takes are listed in lord. unless what maupin is saying is that they were destroyed or are missing. i asked belden about these a long time ago, and i don't think that he had them, so they may indeed be missing. but then how would belden have gotten all the new tracks for the 3cd reissue. i would think that all the reels would be stores in one location.

[sidewinder]

'soul tv', nyc    1-28-72  I remember Britt
audio of this is on Fresh Sound  Lee Morgan - We Remember You
the rest of this video program (Angela and The Sidewinder) used to be on youtube

That show has an impromptu appearance in the front row from Mrs Morgan..

[Eric]

'soul tv', nyc    1-28-72  I remember Britt
audio of this is on Fresh Sound  Lee Morgan - We Remember You
the rest of this video program (Angela and The Sidewinder) used to be on youtube

that is really, really nice ...

[JSngry]

Does the Fresh Sound "Lighthouse" thing collect all the known material from whatever it is that's being covered?

Might be the same club/piano as the BN set, but definitely not the same recordist.

[david weiss]

This came out on Fresh Sound as "Live at the Lighthouse" and said to be outtakes from The Lighthouse.  Maupin put the record straight when nothing was found in the Blue Note archives.

This is wrong. There is plenty in the Blue Note archives and it is different from this material. The discographies linked here have it pretty correct as far as the material is concerned (except that Jack DeJohnette only sat in on one tune, not the whole set). I listened to everything recorded when I helped put the 3 CD set together. I don't believe Bennie ever said anything regarding what was found in the archives. He came to the studio one day when we were working on this to listen to some of the stuff and give us some feedback.

This came out on Fresh Sound as "Live at the Lighthouse" and said to be outtakes from The Lighthouse.  Maupin put the record straight when nothing was found in the Blue Note archives.

 

does maupin claim that all the lighthouse rejected takes listed at the link below no longer exist in the blue note vaults?

http://www.jazzdisco.org/lee-morgan/discography/#700710

 

I'm sure Maupin never claimed this. They are still all in the archives. 

It's a nice set. I don't believe the location has ever been conclusively determined—Maupin says Both/And but the piano sounds the same as the Lighthouse.

I don't think Bennie ever claimed this either. He did say they did a week or two at the Both/And before they did the Lighthouse and may have said they did a radio broadcast or maybe not. I think Bob Belden was the only one to claim it was the Both/And and I really don't know what he based this on. I got the feeling it was just to not have two Lighthouse recordings out there and make the Blue Note set the definitive thing to own. 

I said at the time that the other material came from the Lighthouse as well. They were there for two weeks and only recorded for three days towards the end of the engagement so there was plenty of time for someone else to record the band. It's clear the "bootleg" recording is not Blue Note out takes (and I know this for sure). I also know that Fresh Sound bought a number of tapes recorded at the Lighthouse from Howard Rumsey (though they never cleared the rights to release them from the artists) and on the original issue of the CD, they thank Rumsey in the credits. The more recent issue of the CD gives the following credit.....Original recording produced by Howard Rumsey.

How much more proof do you need to confirm this was indeed recorded at the Lighthouse but just earlier in the run.

Isn't this the source for the only Lee Morgan version of the Maupin tune "The Chief"? - the studio version being on the still UNreleased half of that one Morgan session that was used as bonus tracks on "The Sixth Sense"?

iirc

Yes. I always wondered why when they didn't include this tune when making the live recording. They did not attempt it once during the three nights they had the tapes rolling for Blue Note. 

I remember originally buying the Fresh Sound set thinking that this was a reissue of the Blue Note 'Live at the Lighthouse' and being initially disappointed with the sonics. Can't argue with the quality of the music though - it's up to the standard of the Blue Note set. I subscribe to the 'Both/And' gig being the origin of this one, although that is an interesting comment above about the piano sonics - radio airshot?

No....not Both/And, I'm almost certain of this. Clearly Rumsey recorded stuff on his own sometimes. A radio airshot would not have as much crowd noise I think.....

maupin's statement seems confusing since the rejected takes are listed in lord. unless what maupin is saying is that they were destroyed or are missing. i asked belden about these a long time ago, and i don't think that he had them, so they may indeed be missing. but then how would belden have gotten all the new tracks for the 3cd reissue. i would think that all the reels would be stores in one location.

Bennie is clearly misquoted. All the material is still safely in the Blue Note vaults......Belden had DATs for all of it. I listened to all of them and chose all the takes for the Blue Note set.

 

Edited August 2, 2015 by david weiss

[sidewinder]

Very interesting !

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

what you really need is the Phoenix records issue called "out there", its on ebay semi frequently for under $20.  its a 1980 repress of a trip lp, on better vinyl.  sound q is fantastic on this

[JohnS]

Are we any nearer to conclusively finding the origin of this music?

[Dan Gould]

I think David has answered that question.  If the Fresh Sounds set gives credit to Howard Rumsey then it has to be at the Lighthouse.  Unless, that is, Rumsey was also involved in the Both/And club?

 

Thanks for setting the record straight, David.

[Eric]

Thanks for setting the record straight, David.

At one point I had the Fresh Sound set, but never really listened to it.  I bought the new one recently and have been enjoying it quite a bit.  Sound quality is "B+" or better.  It does not distract - really only makes you wish you could hear Lee a tad more clearly, because his playing is strong.  Don't know if the sound is better or worse than the Fresh Sound set, but certainly no real complaints.  Mabern and Maupin maybe fare slightly better than Lee, FWIW.  And you can hear Jymie Merritt pretty decently.

Mentioned above, but the crowd was enthusiastic and is a fun part of album.  At one point someone yells out "Gary's Notebook" a few times, which unfortunately goes ignored.

This set does include tunes not included in the BN set - the Harold mabern tune, "Rakin' And Scrapin'" (which absolutely kills), "Willow Weep For Me" and "Ceora" (two versions).

Good stuff and a great companion to the BN sides.

 

[JohnS]

I think David has answered that question.  If the Fresh Sounds set gives credit to Howard Rumsey then it has to be at the Lighthouse.  Unless, that is, Rumsey was also involved in the Both/And club?

 

Thanks for setting the record straight, David.

Okay, thanks David and Dan, The Lighthouse it is.

[sidewinder]

Trying to dig out that Fresh Sounds box to see what the notes say but I'm afraid to say - I can't find it. Time for a clear out !!  I remember that credit to Rumsey in the notes though.

[mjzee]

I once had some of this material on a Trip 2-LP set.  How does the Fresh Sound compare - does it have better sound?  I remember the music having a nice kind of energy, but Lee was low in the mix.