John Coltrane and Red Garland

[Teasing the Korean]

A name-dropping former music professor of mine indicted that John Coltrane didn't like Red Garland's piano playing, that "only those very few of us who were close to the (Miles Davis) group knew this."  I thought this was a funny statement even as a teenager.

Well, John Coltrane certainly recorded with Red Garland outside of the Miles Davis group.  At the same time, Coltrane to me didn't fully become Coltrane until he hooked up with McCoy Tyner. 

So name-dropping aside, is there any truth to this?  Was Coltrane simply doing his thing and waiting for a player like McCoy Tyner to show up?

 

[JSngry]

He might have preferred McCoy once he heard him, but that does not correlate to not ever liking Red before, or even after.

[paul secor]

"At the same time, Coltrane to me didn't fully become Coltrane until he hooked up with McCoy Tyner."

I guess that's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it, but I don't agree. 

[soulpope]

2 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Well, John Coltrane certainly recorded with Red Garland outside of the Miles Davis group.  At the same time, Coltrane to me didn't fully become Coltrane until he hooked up with McCoy Tyner ....

When did "Coltrane fully become Coltrane" .... ?

[mjzee]

Orrin Keepnews in the liner notes for Monk And Coltrane: The Complete 1957 Riverside Recordings:

"(Bob Weinstock) was under particular pressure from Red Garland to record his good friend and Davis bandmate (Coltrane), and so, without an excessive amount of enthusiasm, Weinstock had offered Coltrane a modest two-year deal and it had been accepted."

In regards to the initial posting, what's probably more to the point was that Garland and Coltrane recorded standards in the '50's.  This, combined with Garland's playing style, resulted in a lighter, more airy and happier sound (and I really like these Coltrane recordings).  The '60's were a different time: darker, more turbulent.  I think Tyner helped bring out those qualities in Coltrane, but at the expense of those lighter qualities.

[Guy Berger]

 

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

He might have preferred McCoy once he heard him, but that does not correlate to not ever liking Red before, or even after.

McCoy was influenced by Red, wasn't he?  I have to imagine that appealed to Coltrane.

[JSngry]

McCoy always claimed Ritchie Powell as his main man.

[Teasing the Korean]

Thanks all for the replies.  So I guess it was bull@#$% after all.

9 hours ago, paul secor said:

"At the same time, Coltrane to me didn't fully become Coltrane until he hooked up with McCoy Tyner."

I guess that's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it, but I don't agree. 

Most people don't listen to jazz, so they don't agree with either of us.

8 hours ago, soulpope said:

When did "Coltrane fully become Coltrane" .... ?

When he hooked up with McCoy, Elvin, and Jimmy.

[JSngry]

Well, like Miles & Wayne, the collaborational intent with McCoy * Tran was in place long before it came to a gigging reality.

Although I can certainly see where and why Trane was looking forward to McCoy sooner than he could actually get there, it's more or less impossible for me to accept that Coltrane "didn't like" Red Garland's playing. That seems an overly simplistic, faux-hipster tale that flies in the face of all but the most obtuse logic. I mean, c'mon, Redgot him the gig, they were junkies together until Trane cleaned up. Red took longer, of course, so it might have been a "personal" vibe more than a musical one. although, that alone does not explain either elvin or JG.

But sure, you can hear on Paris 1960 with Miles, Trane was already (and all ready) to go someplace else completely, and McCoy no doubt knew where that was.

[Gheorghe]

Well the Prestige years I think were rough years for those who recorded for them. Same with Coltrane, with Jackie McLean. They made so many albums for that label, mostly standard ballad and blues based material.
I have all those records, but it seems that after years, if I don´t want to spin "a Prestige chronological order" of them, I just spin "Good Bait" and "Stardust" as two albums that I already had "then" in the 70´s. Among more certain groups of youngsters there was a Coltrane-hype then. Well, Trane was dead for 10 years, but many many people you met adored Coltrane, but mostly the 60´s phase, the Impulse years, but would have one ore two older Coltrane albums also, that´s how I got acquainted to "Good Bait".....

[John L]

If Coltrane didn’t like Red Garland’s playing, it is curious that he recorded so much with him, including as a session leader. But who knows?

[Teasing the Korean]

1 hour ago, John L said:

If Coltrane didn’t like Red Garland’s playing, it is curious that he recorded so much with him, including as a session leader. But who knows?

The same name-dropping music professor sat down at the piano to demonstrate something about "Lady Bird," which a student ensemble had just played.  He  messed up one of the chord sequences, and one of the students corrected him.  After having the right chords, he said, "Of course.  Tadd would kill me if he knew I'd forgotten those changes!"

Edited July 28, 2018 by Teasing the Korean

[Scott Dolan]

Sounds like somebody is just a little too full of shit. 

[Joe]

But did Trane like Steve Kuhn?

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Joe said:

But did Trane like Steve Kuhn?

I think he did, but just not for his band. 

[jlhoots]

Off topic (partially), but my favorite Red Garland Trio album is Groovy.

[felser]

Probably noteworthy that once Trane got to Atlantic, pre-McCoy he did not use Garland.  Used Flanagan, Walton, Wynton Kelly.  Though I guess that could have been a contractual thing with Garland being exclusively signed to Prestige or something?   I think there are several noteworthy Trane's, and he became the first one probably around the time of recording with Monk, and the whole sheets of sound thing (which I like quite a bit).  And his writing really came into focus with the 'Giant Steps' album ( I LOVE "Syeeda's Song Flute").

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

If Coltrane didn't like Red Garland's playing, why did he record with him so much, he wasnt a "house" pianist for Prestige, the same way Hank Jones was for Savoy, i dont think

[JSngry]

10 hours ago, felser said:

Probably noteworthy that once Trane got to Atlantic, pre-McCoy he did not use Garland.  Used Flanagan, Walton, Wynton Kelly.  Though I guess that could have been a contractual thing with Garland being exclusively signed to Prestige or something?  

Perhaps contractual, perhaps "lifestyle", perhaps a combination of things.

[Joe]

18 hours ago, JSngry said:

I think he did, but just not for his band. 

I wish there were recorded evidence of their "playing outside" together (as Kuhn claims they were wont to do). Based on Pete LaRoca's BASRA, I can hear how Kuhn might have functioned in Coltrane's band. Then again, 1960 Trane is not 1964 Trane.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

went to a Kuhn masterclass with in depth Q&A 7 yrs ago- this would of been a good question

[Guy Berger]

I never really thought about it but Red really did record almost exclusively for Prestige and its sibling labels during the 1950s.  The Miles Davis recordings are the big exception, there’s also the 1 Art Pepper album, something on Status.  That’s it.

More generally - did listeners kind of forget about Red after he left Miles’s group? His style might have been too quirky for many.

[Chuck Nessa]

1 hour ago, Guy Berger said:

I never really thought about it but Red really did record almost exclusively for Prestige and its sibling labels during the 1950s.  The Miles Davis recordings are the big exception, there’s also the 1 Art Pepper album, something on Status.  That’s it.

More generally - did listeners kind of forget about Red after he left Miles’s group? His style might have been too quirky for many.

Status is Prestige too.

[JSngry]

2 hours ago, Joe said:

I wish there were recorded evidence of their "playing outside" together (as Kuhn claims they were wont to do). Based on Pete LaRoca's BASRA, I can hear how Kuhn might have functioned in Coltrane's band. Then again, 1960 Trane is not 1964 Trane.

And there is more to being in a band than just playing the music. The "cultural mission" of Trane's music was not about Steve Kuhn and it was nothing against Steve Kuhn, man or musician. McCoy, otoh...

2 hours ago, Guy Berger said:

More generally - did listeners kind of forget about Red after he left Miles’s group? His style might have been too quirky for many.

Red had a working trio up until, iirc, 1963 or so, after which he moved to Dallas to take care of his mother (again, iirc.). Out of sight, out of mind, no record dates, no live gigs.

[mjzee]

I recently started reading The JC Reference, and learned Coltrane and Garland were playing together as early as 1948 (in Cleanhead Vinson’s band).