Philly Joe Jones/Elmo Hope Birdland recording (Accardi Collection)

[James Accardi]

On 7/4/2023 at 5:19 PM, romualdo said:

Wonder how long before Pujol etc get their hands on this

Hi, folks—this is Accardi (not Riccardi). I saw this thread a while ago but had not yet had a chance to reply. I just got word from Noal Cohen that these recordings are now on CD: FSRCD1139 (“Live at Birdland Historic Unreleased Recordings”). I had nothing to do with this release, and the timing seems to just be a coincidence.

Take note that this album contains music from two other Birdland shows with Elmo Hope (February 24, 1962 and March 3, 1962). My acetates of all this material were cut by Boris Rose from his tapes, and details of these can be found in the Elmo Hope discography at Noal’s excellent  web site (as well as the Evensmo solography).

The information on the Fresh Sound web site has the date for the session with Gilmore as  January 5, 1962. This show, and the “Mulligan-Brookmeyer” set which follows it, are listed as “1/5/62” in the Birdland Book. They both appear in chronological order in the book, but clearly the typist was accustomed to typing “62”. January 5 was a Saturday in 1963, a Friday in 1962.

Also, the second title is listed as “I Remember Clifford” but I hear it as “I Can't Get Started” (certainly the recording includes the “you're so supreme” bridge).

The Birdland Book reads:

PHILLY JO JONES
1/5/62
(1) Show Us The Light                      (14)
(2)                                                      (10)
(3) Take 12                                        (8½)

[Dan Gould]

I am seeing September 30 as a release date at least in Japan?

Very curious about this since it's got Sonny Red, Hardman, Reece as well as Gilmore.

[romualdo]

6 hours ago, James Accardi said:

Hi, folks—this is Accardi (not Riccardi). I saw this thread a while ago but had not yet had a chance to reply. I just got word from Noal Cohen that these recordings are now on CD: FSRCD1139 (“Live at Birdland Historic Unreleased Recordings”). I had nothing to do with this release, and the timing seems to just be a coincidence.

Take note that this album contains music from two other Birdland shows with Elmo Hope (February 24, 1962 and March 3, 1962). My acetates of all this material were cut by Boris Rose from his tapes, and details of these can be found in the Elmo Hope discography at Noal’s excellent  web site (as well as the Evensmo solography).

The information on the Fresh Sound web site has the date for the session with Gilmore as  January 5, 1962. This show, and the “Mulligan-Brookmeyer” set which follows it, are listed as “1/5/62” in the Birdland Book. They both appear in chronological order in the book, but clearly the typist was accustomed to typing “62”. January 5 was a Saturday in 1963, a Friday in 1962.

Also, the second title is listed as “I Remember Clifford” but I hear it as “I Can't Get Started” (certainly the recording includes the “you're so supreme” bridge).

The Birdland Book reads:

PHILLY JO JONES
1/5/62
(1) Show Us The Light                      (14)
(2)                                                      (10)
(3) Take 12                                        (8½)

Thanks James (got your email too), what a coincidence indeed re Fresh Sound

Also sorry bout the Accardi vs Riccardi confusion 

5 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

I am seeing September 30 as a release date at least in Japan?

Very curious about this since it's got Sonny Red, Hardman, Reece as well as Gilmore.

It's already available via Fresh Sound

https://www.freshsoundrecords.com/philly-joe-jones-albums/56771-live-at-birdland-historic-unreleased-1962-recordings.html

[Dan Gould]

7 hours ago, romualdo said:

 

It's already available via Fresh Sound

https://www.freshsoundrecords.com/philly-joe-jones-albums/56771-live-at-birdland-historic-unreleased-1962-recordings.html

Yes I found it on their site. 

This probably deserves a separate thread but it seems Jordi got another set of Birdland recordings, now released:

Al Grey/Billy Mitchell. Why it needed to be paired with an Argo LP I am not sure but this also looks very intriguing. Something to pair up with the Philly Joe release.

https://www.freshsoundrecords.com/al-grey-billy-mitchell-albums/56637-sextet-septet-live-at-the-museum-of-modern-art-at-birdland-2-cd.html

[Kevin Bresnahan]

7 hours ago, romualdo said:

It's already available via Fresh Sound

https://www.freshsoundrecords.com/philly-joe-jones-albums/56771-live-at-birdland-historic-unreleased-1962-recordings.html

I stopped giving Jordi my money a while ago.

[Dan Gould]

49 minutes ago, bresna said:

I stopped giving Jordi my money a while ago.

This is the sort of thing I make an exception for ... his slapping together of LPs not so much.  But historic radio broadcasts with preferred groups/musicians, yeah I will pay or let someone else know for future gift purchases.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

2 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

This is the sort of thing I make an exception for ... his slapping together of LPs not so much.  But historic radio broadcasts with preferred groups/musicians, yeah I will pay or let someone else know for future gift purchases.

Yes, but since his financial contribution to this is likely, "I bought the tape" and nothing to do with, "I paid the musicians' estates", why should I support him back? I have no problem supporting the musicians. I have big problems supporting this.

Just download a copy of the tape and the musicians make the same amount of money.

And to be clear, this is just my take. I don't think you're evil or anything by buying this. I just wish that Jordi's enterprise was more about paying the musicians than just uncovering lost tapes.

[Dan Gould]

35 minutes ago, bresna said:

Yes, but since his financial contribution to this is likely, "I bought the tape" and nothing to do with, "I paid the musicians' estates", why should I support him back? I have no problem supporting the musicians. I have big problems supporting this.

Just download a copy of the tape and the musicians make the same amount of money.

And to be clear, this is just my take. I don't think you're evil or anything by buying this. I just wish that Jordi's enterprise was more about paying the musicians than just uncovering lost tapes.

Agreed and I understand the attitude ... but I also wonder if anyone who performed at Birdland and now are on a Jordi CD ... were any of them getting payments to their estates for anything they recorded?

[Kevin Bresnahan]

1 minute ago, Dan Gould said:

Agreed and I understand the attitude ... but I also wonder if anyone who performed at Birdland and now are on a Jordi CD ... were any of them getting payments to their estates for anything they recorded?

They would if it were released on Elemental or Reel To Reel or Resonance or most any other record company that operates above board. Jordi has said in an interview that he buys the tapes so he believes that he has the rights to release it. I just find that attitude pretty terrible considering that many Jazz musicians didn't exactly live the good life in the first place.

I remember Michael Cuscuna telling me that the main reason he did a Big John Patton Mosaic Select box was so he could get some money to his widow who was facing medical bills. That's the kind of release I can put my money behind. You can damn well bet that I bought that box the minute it was released.

[JSngry]

Boris Rose. Discuss. 

[AllenLowe]

Are there any samples of this around? Sonny Red is great, and I love Elmo, but Hope declined a bit in the '60s.

Edited September 6, 2023 by AllenLowe

[Dan Gould]

3 hours ago, JSngry said:

Boris Rose. Discuss. 

Well yeah ... you can find his LPs online pretty easy. Valid to purchase? OK to purchase since Boris is  long dead and made whatever he made while he was selling his ill-gotten recordings?

Not to mention the implication that this comes from a Boris recording.  Maybe all of the descendants of original tapers should be told to only sell to Resonance or Reel-to-Reel.

[JSngry]

Boris Rose also used intentionally bizarre lo-grade packaging, and set a low list price. He also didn't publicize his labels at all. They just...showed up. And then they disappeared.

I had no problems buying Boris Rose records. 

Oh, his goods were not at all ill-gotten. They were just airshots that he made. And I believe that his first customers were musicians themselves!

Boris Rose did his own work. 

[Dan Gould]

7 hours ago, JSngry said:

Boris Rose also used intentionally bizarre lo-grade packaging, and set a low list price. He also didn't publicize his labels at all. They just...showed up. And then they disappeared.

I had no problems buying Boris Rose records. 

Oh, his goods were not at all ill-gotten. They were just airshots that he made. And I believe that his first customers were musicians themselves!

Boris Rose did his own work. 

So if Jordi did the recording of airshots from Birdland and put them out on FreshSounds that would make it fine?

Kevin's point remains - only owners of labels were getting paid.

[JSngry]

Not about paying for me with stuff like this.

Honor among thieves is a real thing. Judil Poohills does not appear to have and/or display it. 

[Dan Gould]

On 9/7/2023 at 9:43 AM, JSngry said:

Not about paying for me with stuff like this.

Honor among thieves is a real thing. Judil Poohills does not appear to have and/or display it. 

I received this and the Al Grey/Billy Mitchell thing and noticed an interesting credit at the end of the fairly extensive liners:

"Compiled by Jordi Sunol"

Huh?  So he took from various sources without attribution?  I guess it's part and parcel of his business model.

Anyway, sound is listenable, drums pretty up front. I need to listen more carefully a couple of times but I have a feeling this will make some "best archival releases" lists.

And about the Al Grey/Billy Mitchell, not noted before:

I think they start with an issued Argo LP because they needed space on an extra CD for the entirety of the available broadcasts from Birdland. They start with three tunes, about 20 minutes, on disc 1 (after the Argo LP) and then fill disc 2.  It's a lot of live performance by a great group and this may ultimately appeal most to me out of these two CD releases.

[jlhoots]

1 hour ago, Dan Gould said:

I received this and the Al Grey/Billy Mitchell thing and noticed an interesting credit at the end of the fairly extensive liners:

"Compiled by Jordi Sunol"

Huh?  So he took from various sources without attribution?  I guess it's part and parcel of his business model.

Anyway, sound is listenable, drums pretty up front. I need to listen more carefully a couple of times but I have a feeling this will make some "best archival releases" lists.

And about the Al Grey/Billy Mitchell, not noted before:

I think they start with an issued Argo LP because they needed space on an extra CD for the entirety of the available broadcasts from Birdland. They start with three tunes, about 20 minutes, on disc 1 (after the Argo LP) and then fill disc 2.  It's a lot of live performance by a great group and this may ultimately appeal most to me out of these two CD releases.

Where did you get these?

[Dan Gould]

30 minutes ago, jlhoots said:

Where did you get these?

Jordi's website

https://www.freshsoundrecords.com/philly-joe-jones-albums/56771-live-at-birdland-historic-unreleased-1962-recordings.html

https://www.freshsoundrecords.com/al-grey-billy-mitchell-albums/56637-sextet-septet-live-at-the-museum-of-modern-art-at-birdland-2-cd.html

with shipping to the states I paid $30 or so.

 

[Dan Gould]

Well apparently I didn't look closely enough at the Al Grey/Billy Mitchell details.

Disc 1 puts together live recordings issued by Argo.  Al Grey-Billy Mitchell Sextet in it's entirety and 1/2 of Al Grey Snap Your Fingers. Both items I already own.

Now it's on to the new radio broadcasts which of course have the usual warning about audible faults that can't be fixed, blah blah blah.  Fingers crossed.

[mjzee]

Listening now to the PJJ.  Sound quality is listenable: a little rough, but all instruments can be heard (bass is especially listenable, and PJJ is very clear and lively).  The first set (with Reece, Red, Gilmore, Hope and Ridley) is musically fantastic.  

[david weiss]

Back when I did some work with Jordi Pujol (around 20 years ago or so now), he played me some of these Philly Joe Jones tapes but if I remember correctly, he did not have the tape with Reece and Gilmore yet but had the other two and it was not enough material to fill a CD. I guess when word got about this other tape, perhaps Pujol tracked it down so he had this full release. 

[Big Beat Steve]

Now that this discussion is revolving about the seemingly eternal "who's paying whom and when and why not" question again, how about looking a wee bit beyond Jordi Pujol (who is not the only fish in the P.D. pond, BTW, although arguably the one who - in addition to other wheelings and dealings - occupies territory that hardly any other reissuer saw fit to occupy even at a time when Pujol was not around) and Boris Rose? There also was a character named JERRY VALBURN. Looking beyond the good he seemingly did by adding to the Duke Ellington discography, anyone know for SURE that HE did pay royalties to the artists or their descendants according to US laws for all the stuff he reissued (or actually released first time in the case of alternate takes) on his plethora of labels (the covers of which often did not exactly look much more upmarket than those of Boris Rose)? E.g. Meritt, Blu-Disc, Everybody's, and so on ...

Just wondering because in recent months I got quite a batch of these (secondhand) from jazz collectors' estates that showed up in a local record shop ...

Edited October 22, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

Jerry Valburn had a reputation as a thief. Literally.