medjuck Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 (edited) A non-music critic response: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-02-14/rhapsody-in-blue-100th-anniversary If you scroll down to the bottom of the column there's a good description of the writer's qualifications. Edited February 20 by medjuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 this is getting silly - the LA Times takes the tack that the piece was "aspirational," as though that has anything to do with whether Rhapsody is worthwhile or not. Ethan is right - Rhapsody is a pastiche of empty musical gestures, fun and dynamic at times, but shallow and musically all surface. I don't care how ambitious Gershwin was; Trump is ambitious. That does not mean anything good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 14 minutes ago, AllenLowe said: Ethan is right - Rhapsody is a pastiche of empty musical gestures, fun and dynamic at times, but shallow and musically all surface. Alpha and Omega, right there. All this other stuff is criticspeak of varying relevance, but in light of this fundamental truth, too much icing on a really bad cake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medjuck Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 3 hours ago, AllenLowe said: this is getting silly - the LA Times takes the tack that the piece was "aspirational," as though that has anything to do with whether Rhapsody is worthwhile or not. Ethan is right - Rhapsody is a pastiche of empty musical gestures, fun and dynamic at times, but shallow and musically all surface. I don't care how ambitious Gershwin was; Trump is ambitious. That does not mean anything good. It's not the LA Times. It's a guy who who usually writes about Latino life saying what it means to him. I think it's interesting to hear from a non-musician non-white. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 Man I love this piece. When I hear it I remember how much joy it brought my Dad for decades. I'll never stop giving it spins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 1 hour ago, medjuck said: I think it's interesting to hear from a non-musician non-white. We've been hearing from non-musician whites talking about "jazz" for about a century now and the results have been, shall we say, mixed. At best. Everybody's entitled to their opinion, but an ignorant opinion is still ignorant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stompin at the Savoy Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 5 minutes ago, JSngry said: We've been hearing from non-musician whites talking about "jazz" for about a century now and the results have been, shall we say, mixed. At best. Everybody's entitled to their opinion, but an ignorant opinion is still ignorant. This is all very doctrinaire. People who disagree with me are ignorant, etc. What's the point of all these put-downs? Nobody is forcing you to listen to anything. The fact is this is a popular piece. Does it deserve to be so popular is a question which does does not tend toward edification. It is. Get over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 Ok, I disagree with you and I am doctrinaire. Yep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stompin at the Savoy Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 5 minutes ago, Stompin at the Savoy said: We've been hearing from non-musician whites talking about "jazz" for about a century now and the results have been, shall we say, mixed. At best. And by the way I really don't understand this statement. What? The essay was by a non-white. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 How about defending Rhapsody In Blue on musical grounds? As in, ok, it's not a "a pastiche of empty musical gestures, fun and dynamic at times, but shallow and musically all surface". State your case "It's popular" is sociology, not music. Music that is very popular is quite often very bad, and I like a good amount of it. Not this one, though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stompin at the Savoy Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 1 minute ago, JSngry said: How about defending Rhapsody In Blue on musical grounds? As in, ok, it's not a "a pastiche of empty musical gestures, fun and dynamic at times, but shallow and musically all surface". State your case "It's popular" is sociology, not music. Music that is very popular is quite often very bad, and I like a good amount of it. Not this one, though! I don't totally disagree with you. In my view it is not a masterpiece nor is it the best work Gershwin ever did. On the other hand in your excoriation of it I find something uncomfortably similar to my own protestations about the quality of Taylor Swift's work. After a good deal of thought on the matter I have concluded that whatever the reason and whatever the justice of the judgement the fact is people like her. Putting down her music is trying to hold back the tide. I've learned that my doctrinaire rants don't impress anyone and realized that asking if she deserves all this approval does not tend to edification. No one is forcing me to listen to her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 I've yet to knowingly hear a Taylor Swift song, so have no opinion about her music. None. The privilege of age, perhaps. As a business and sociological figure, though, she is obviously quite savvy and to this point clearly understands how power works. We'll see how well and for how long. Should be very interesting. Otoh, I have heard the dreck that is Rhapsody In Blue more than a few times and am more than confident in my opinion of it. The curse of age, definitely. It's nothing more than a really bad Super Bowl halftime show just waiting to happen all over again for the first time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stompin at the Savoy Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 15 minutes ago, JSngry said: Otoh, I have heard the dreck that is Rhapsody In Blue more than a few times and am more than confident in my opinion of it. Did I say doctrinaire? Maybe I meant dogmatic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 Or maybe just informed? Make your case the other way. Go ahead. I'll spot you "a lot of people have liked it for a long time". Stipulated. But that's entirely a sociological point. I'll also stipulate that TTK has a valid point about proto-bachelor pad/bustling urbanity archetype, for whatever that's worth. Not much to me, but the point is certainly valid, and that guy knows his stuff about that stuff. But other than those, what's your point? Are there some compositional subtleties I'm missing? Are the some obvious depth of development that has escaped me? See you at halftime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stompin at the Savoy Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 (edited) 1 hour ago, Stompin at the Savoy said: "a pastiche of empty musical gestures, fun and dynamic at times, but shallow and musically all surface". This is fine-sounding rhetoric but ultimately a concatenation of subjective impressions: the musical gestures are empty - how are you going to prove that? Shallow and musically all surface - how are you going to document that? Those are subjective opinions. So is "it's corny". You are acting like this proves it scientifically: Allen Lowe said it so it must be truth! Musical dogma! You can no more prove those things than you can disprove it when I claim the piece was inventive, stimulating, and interesting in its time. Something that was inventive, stimulating etc 100 years ago probably isn't going to seem inventive etc now. Edited February 21 by Stompin at the Savoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 Except... yes, you can quantify the "depth" of a piece of music by what the composer/improviser does with the materials at hand. The depth of the material itself is a little more subjective, but it's safe to say that belaboring the obvious as an end to itself is swimming in the shallow end of the pool. But a grown man using water wings in the wading pool is hardly gonna qualify for the Olympics. Do you want to talk music as fact, or sentimentality? I dislike this piece immensely on both counts, but on the factual elements of it's music, I have yet to see anybody make a convincing case in favor of it. So, let's hear your facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stompin at the Savoy Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 (edited) 12 minutes ago, JSngry said: Except... yes, you can quantify the "depth" of a piece of music by what the composer/improviser does with the materials at hand. The depth of the material itself is a little more subjective, but it's safe to say that belaboring the obvious as an end to itself is swimming in the shallow end of the pool. But a grown man using water wings in the wading pool is hardly gonna qualify for the Olympics. Do you want to talk music as fact, or sentimentality? I dislike this piece immensely on both counts, but on the factual elements of it's music, I have yet to see anybody make a convincing case in favor of it. So, let's hear your facts. You have yet to adduce any facts. Calling something deep or shallow isn't a fact. Possibly you have actual facts; you haven't revealed one yet. To some extent I agree with your opinion but I am honest enough to admit it's an opinion, not a fact. Insisting that one's opinion is fact is a hallmark of dogmatism. Edited February 21 by Stompin at the Savoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 I Bark then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 Facts would be looking at the structures of the themes and then what is done with them. The themes are simple. Fact. They aren't developed for shit. Fact. They don't do anything other than state themselves and plod around before moving on to the next one. A little bit opinion, but still fact once considered outside of the vacuum of inability to weigh things both objectively and relatively. "Compared to what?" as they say. Feel free to present counter-facts, please. And show your work. Oh, tell Glenn Gould that he's dogmatic: That album is a hoot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stompin at the Savoy Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 16 minutes ago, JSngry said: Facts would be looking at the structures of the themes and then what is done with them. The themes are simple. Fact. They aren't developed for shit. Fact. They don't do anything other than state themselves and plod around before moving on to the next one. A little bit opinion, but still fact once considered outside of the vacuum of inability to weigh things both objectively and relatively. "Compared to what?" as they say. Feel free to present counter-facts, please. And show your work. Oh, tell Glenn Gould that he's dogmatic: That album is a hoot! I'm sorry but I am unable to read that album cover at the resolution you have given. He has a number of interesting themes in the Rhapsody but the one I like best is a four note phrase. I don't know what key but something like Db D E E(octave lower). It gets mutated harmonically and rhythmically and reaches a very satisfying melodic/harmonic resolution, as one would in a song. I suspect you know what I am talking about but I could go find that resolution in a clip, I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 Expand the image to read it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stompin at the Savoy Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 (edited) 21 minutes ago, JSngry said: Expand the image to read it . Jim you are talking to a computer expert, ok? The resolution isn't good enough for me to read with my poor vision when I blow it up. 52 minutes ago, JSngry said: The themes are simple. Fact. They aren't developed for shit. Fact. You are still having trouble distinguishing fact from opinion. "They aren't developed for shit" is opinion. Ask yourself: is this something I can prove? I think you have grown used to a rhetorical looseness which allows you to add "and that's just a fact" after you produce an opinion. It's muddy logic and you are confusing yourself with that into believing that opinions are facts. Edited February 21 by Stompin at the Savoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 Proving is done in the realm of comparison. What is your real. Of comparison? The liner notes are quite legible at a higher resolution. Use your phone to see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stompin at the Savoy Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 Just now, JSngry said: The liner notes are quite legible at a higher resolution. You don't understand the difference between resolution and size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 21 Report Share Posted February 21 Just make the damn thing bigger and you can read it just fine. Use a touch screen if you have too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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