The Worst Masterpiece: "Rhapsody in Blue" at 100, by Ethan Iverson

[Teasing the Korean]

14 minutes ago, Brad said:

I posted the article at SHF and it seems to have raised strong reactions. I used to listen to Gershwin as a kid and used to love his compositions but have barely listened since then, except when I board a United flight. I’ve never considered it jazz although GG may have been influenced by jazz. It’s no fault of GG I suppose but I consider it pop. 

I consider a lot of what Paul Whiteman, Ferde Grofe, and George Gershwin did to be in its own category, almost like proto-space-age bachelor pad music, even though it wasn't the space age yet.  

Edited January 29 by Teasing the Korean

[soulpope]

6 minutes ago, ghost of miles said:

NY Times subscribers are permitted 10 "gift articles" a month that can be shared with others.  I'm fortunate to have a subscription through my employer, so here you go:

The Worst Masterpiece: Rhapsody in Blue

Thnx for sharing ....

[ghost of miles]

 

[JSngry]

9 minutes ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

I sympathize with you insofar as I have heard Rhapsody several times and have no need to hear it again.  And from a contemporary musical perspective maybe it isn't that interesting.  In its time the piece was rather startling, even revolutionary, and had reverberations. 

Where you there at the time, or are you just telling the one side of the story that has become the popular narrative?

There's another side to the story that holds that it's not a good composition and didn't tell anything that some people didn't already know. People who didn't create the popular narrative.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with putting that other perspective out there and saying that enough is enough.

[Brad]

11 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I consider a lot of what Paul Whiteman, Ferde Grofe, and George Gershwin did to be in its own category, almost like proto-space-age bachelor pad music, even though it wasn't the space age yet.  

That is quite true. Rhapsody is so different than anything else. 

[Stompin at the Savoy]

1 minute ago, JSngry said:

Where you there at the time, or are you just telling the one side of the story that has become the popular narrative?

 

Come on Jim, now you are not doing your homework or something.  The piece was discussed to death at the time.  Gershwin was the toast of Europe.  At the time most black music was considered beneath consideration.  A serious composer took black music seriously in a European musical context.

[JSngry]

Just now, Stompin at the Savoy said:

Come on Jim, now you are not doing your homework or something.  The piece was discussed to death at the time.  Gershwin was the toast of Europe.  At the time most black music was considered beneath consideration.  A serious composer took black music seriously in a European musical context.

Of course that is all correct. "White people"  certainly did all of that.

Which is precisely the point. That was just one side of the story. And still is. 

And there were -and still are - plenty of people for whom black music was certainly not beneath serious consideration, namely creators (of all "colors") of black music.

But, you know, "white people"  gonna "white people". It's all about them, always 

18 minutes ago, ghost of miles said:

 

Not even Duke can take the cheese out of it. Not that he was trying...

that's like a George Cates chart with great soloists. 

[Stompin at the Savoy]

6 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Of course that is all correct. "White people"  certainly did all of that.

Which is precisely the point. That was just one side of the story. And still is. 

And there were -and still are - plenty of people for whom black music was certainly not beneath serious consideration, namely creators (of all "colors") of black music.

But, you know, "white people"  gonna "white people". It's all about them, always 

Hmnnn.  Well I don't agree with you.  And I reject the tune, which you seem to be moving towards, that Gershwin is somehow bad or undeserving (sung over rhythm changes).

Edited January 29 by Stompin at the Savoy

[Teasing the Korean]

5 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Of course that is all correct. "White people"  certainly did all of that.

Which is precisely the point. That was just one side of the story. And still is. 

And there were -and still are - plenty of people for whom black music was certainly not beneath serious consideration, namely creators (of all "colors") of black music.

But, you know, "white people"  gonna "white people". It's all about them, always 

So is your beef with Grofe/Gershwin/Whiteman, or is it with white audiences/the white classical establishment that elevated RIB to a stature beyond what you feel it deserves? 

[JSngry]

My beef is that it's not a good piece of music, period. It's shallow, corny, and lacks any depth at all. It's all surface and no substance. 

And then, whatever follows from that. 

I think that Iverson gets that part of it absolutely correct. 

[Stompin at the Savoy]

2 minutes ago, JSngry said:

My beef is that it's not a good piece of music, period. It's shallow, corny, and lacks any depth at all. It's all surface and no substance. 

And then, whatever follows from that. 

I think that Iverson gets that part of it absolutely correct. 

That's your assessment and that is fine by me.  Nevertheless I find Rhapsody memorable and there are a few passages from it that I occasionally recall.

[JSngry]

13 minutes ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

Hmnnn.  Well I don't agree with you.  And I reject the tune, which you seem to be moving towards, that Gershwin is somehow bad or undeserving (sung over rhythm changes).

Bad/undeserving, no.

Overhyped as part of a business narrative, yes, absolutely.

Make mine Kern, please. 

But better still, move on past all of that. It's over. 

[sonnymax]

I'm not here to change anyone's mind, but I rather like the original composition. It's the orchestrations of the piece that I dislike. Grofé orchestrated it from Gershwin’s solo piano version shortly before it's 1924 premiere. In addition to the original solo piano arrangement, Gershwin made a 2-piano version that included parts left out of the solo arrangement. In 1926, Grofé orchestrated it for a larger orchestra. Grofé would orchestrate it again for full orchestra in 1942. This is the version used on most recordings over the next 30+ years. In 1976, Michael Tilson Thomas reintroduced the original jazz band version.

You can get a sense of Gershwin's original idea from this recording of piano rolls:

Here's an example of Gershwin's 2-piano arrangement:

And MTT's modern recording of the original jazz band version:

I enjoy most the piano versions (solo and duo), and to a lesser degree the original jazz band arrangement under the direction of MTT.

Edited January 29 by sonnymax

[Peter Friedman]

Gershwin wrote a large number of "Great American Songbook" tunes that are what makes him stand out (in my view). While those GAS tunes are not jazz, countless musicians over the years have used them as a basis for jazz improvisation.

We ought not to confuse Gershwin's major contribution as a songwriter with his far less significant Rhapsody In Blue.

And Jim,  by no means should we move on past the music of Kern, Gershwin, Arlen, Porter and the many other fine songwriters of that period. It is not over.

[JSngry]

Well, it is. Not saying that it is or ever should be forgotten, but Lord knows it's over. Not all at once, of course, but it's  happening. If you don't believe me check back in 100 years. 

Oh, Arlen. Yes!!! 

[JSngry]

Ok, George Cates!

 

[Teasing the Korean]

9 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Ok, George Cates!

 

 

[JSngry]

37 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

 

 

Exactly! 

[jazzbo]

Gershwin is the sound of my life--I grew up with it, one of my Dad's top two composers. And I'll never forget listening to the earliest 'twenties performances of RIB with him.

Edited January 29 by jazzbo

[Teasing the Korean]

15 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Exactly! 

👍

If the guy who did the Polynesian Percussion album on Dot thinks Rhapsody in Blue is worthwhile, then say no more!

Edited January 29 by Teasing the Korean

[JSngry]

Can't argue with that! 

[Brad]

7 hours ago, JSngry said:

Well, it is. Not saying that it is or ever should be forgotten, but Lord knows it's over. Not all at once, of course, but it's  happening. If you don't believe me check back in 100 years. 

Oh, Arlen. Yes!!! 

I’m afraid that in 100 years everyone participating in this discussion will be taking the proverbial dirt nap. 

[JSngry]

I'm not afraid of that, and/but I'm not going to let that stop me!

[AllenLowe]

This is just my opinion, but I also don’t like Rhapsody, and in my opinion,if you want to hear Gershwin writing in a “serious” and successful way you should check out the Preludes, particularly as recorded by Oscar Levant, though there’s also a good Gershwin version of same.

by the way, I have to add that Ethan’s weird historical gaps continue to come out. He writes : 

”Levant was considered a popular Gershwin expert and practitioner, partly because he was close friends with the composer, partly because he was a charming film personality.”

Sorry, not quite. Levant was a brilliant raconteur, called by Groucho Marx, yes, Groucho Marx, the best ad libber he ever heard. Plus he wrote two fascinating books of autobiography.

sorry about the type size can’t seem to get it corrected.

Edited January 30 by AllenLowe

[rostasi]

22 hours ago, JSngry said:

Got any other ideas? 

Yup!

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