The Worst Masterpiece: "Rhapsody in Blue" at 100, by Ethan Iverson

[mikeweil]

Many aspects play a role here. Racial and segregational issues, economics, taste - all interwoven in a very complex fashion. As long as black, white, jewish etc. is an issue and musicians have to make money with their profession under these conditions, there will be happenings like this. Basically, you use whatever you hear and inspires you. What grows out of it is another thing. But y'all know this.

[Teasing the Korean]

25 minutes ago, mikeweil said:

Many aspects play a role here. Racial and segregational issues, economics, taste - all interwoven in a very complex fashion. As long as black, white, jewish etc. is an issue and musicians have to make money with their profession under these conditions, there will be happenings like this. Basically, you use whatever you hear and inspires you. What grows out of it is another thing. But y'all know this.

And as long as musicians struggle to make money or find an audience, some will write provocative essays as a side hustle.

[soulpope]

10 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

And as long as musicians struggle to make money or find an audience, some will write provocative essays as a side hustle.

Touché ....

[Teasing the Korean]

10 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

This is just my opinion, but I also don’t like Rhapsody, and in my opinion,if you want to hear Gershwin writing in a “serious” and successful way you should check out the Preludes, particularly as recorded by Oscar Levant, though there’s also a good Gershwin version of same.

Always loved the Bud Shank/Laurnindo Almeida take on Prelude #2. 

 

Incidentally, regardless of what anyone thinks of Levant or Rhapsody, this LP is well worth it for the cover art, if nothing else. 

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Teasing the Korean said:

And as long as musicians struggle to make money or find an audience, some will write provocative essays as a side hustle.

And occasionally they get it right!

[danasgoodstuff]

Didn't some of the other songwriters of Gershwin's time & place try their hands at writing extended pieces of various sorts?  Maybe instead of putting down RiB a better argument would be to throw light on some of those?  Any thoughts on that?

[sgcim]

On 1/28/2024 at 8:24 PM, JSngry said:

I've never liked it and have never claimed otherwise. Ever. It's corny as fuck.i felt that way before I knew any better and the more better I knew the deeper my loathing for it. 

I've never been bashful about disagreeing with Iverson, but on this one, I totally concur. 

Gershwin in general...whatever. But Rhapsody In Blue...please die. Go away and never come back. 

Yeah, well you never got stuck in a band where a cornball keyboard player who as Art Blakey said, 'couldn't swing if he was hanging from a rope', chose to play RIB as his featured piece EVERY NIGHT. I asked him who his fave jazz pianist was, and he said in his Bullwinkle J. Moose voice, "Why George Gershwin, of course!" He never even heard of Oscar Peterson!

That was the straw that broke this camel's back. I took some Mus. Ed. courses and that was that.

[jazzbo]

In musical form it truly is a "Rhapsody." And it's "Blue." Recorded jazz wasn't even ten years old when it was recorded, and barely a recognized form any longer if that among most music listeners. It had novel elements and was written to be popular and catchy. Looking at it through eyes one hundred years older . . . yeah it doesn't look the same as it did then or even sixty years ago.

I like it, a lot. I get that others don't. I don't share Iverson's view of it.

 

Edited January 30 by jazzbo

[JSngry]

11 hours ago, rostasi said:

Yup!

Follow-up

That works, but - a link to it showed up on my Google news feed with a direct link to the NYT page, which popped up a subscription offer at the bottom that never went away but still let me read the entire article start to finish. 

[Dan Gould]

17 minutes ago, JSngry said:

That works, but - a link to it showed up on my Google news feed with a direct link to the NYT page, which popped up a subscription offer at the bottom that never went away but still let me read the entire article start to finish. 

Seems like they are doing a certain number of free articles still then.

[JSngry]

I get multiple daily newsletters from both them and The Athletic that are usually more than adequate for me. But when I do click a link, results are wildly unpredictable. I've seen no pattern, rhyme, or reason to it.

So if they let me in, fine. And if not, fine. 

[rostasi]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

That works, but - a link to it showed up on my Google news feed with a direct link to the NYT page, which popped up a subscription offer at the bottom that never went away but still let me read the entire article start to finish. 

Well, I can't explain that, but what I get is this:

[JSngry]

That's what Google News offered me, picshurr and all. 

[rostasi]

Why not just use the Wayback Machine, Mr. Peabody?

[JSngry]

If it comes to that, sure.

But TTK had originally posted the entire article here and I read it here before reading Mark's totally legit request for moderatorial intervention, which was immediately granted.

The was nothing in Iverson's piece that stimulated any thoughts that I haven't been having for 45+ years now (longer if you include the intuitive youthful revulsion experienced at whatever time it was), so my interest in jumping the firewall here was all about instanet strategic logistics curiosities, not any quest to redigest the contents.

However, Iverson's followup was pretty well-done also. I recommend reading that as well. He's on solid ground here, too. 

Thank for calling that one out! 

[Teasing the Korean]

So tonight, after my usual 3-mile evening walk, I got in the shower and asked Alexa to play something.  I chose Henry Mancini's version of Bobby Timmons's "Moanin'," with that badass harpsichord solo by John Williams.

As you know, after you ask Alexa to play a song, she goes off in her own direction, sometimes reading your tastes correctly, sometimes not.  Anyway, after "Moanin'" ended, this introspective solo piano piece that I've never heard comes on.  It was an unknown (to me, at least) Gershwin piece called "Under the Cinnamon Tree," as interpreted by pianist Jean-Yves Thibaudet.

 

[rostasi]

Today's comments on the subject.

[mikeweil]

There's a tradition in France and Great Britain of pianists playing "jazz", that is what they thought it to be at the time. The Thibaudet track belongs to that, in my ears.

I think of Bily Mayerl, or Jean Wiener. In Germany, Erwin Schulhoff and Paul Hindemith made money with playing in cabarets and even composed ragtimes and dance stuff. I remember a letter by Hindemith where he offered it to his publisher as he thought it would sell. (There was a lot of this before the Nazis put an end to this.) From this it is not very far to Ravel or Milhaud and their (genuine) insterest in jazz. To me. Gershwin belongs more into this tradition than jazz. Take someone like George Shearing coming out of this tradition.

The Cuban and Carribean pianists playing dance stuff with their conservatory training is a similar stream, take Lecuona.

Edited January 31 by mikeweil

[Teasing the Korean]

8 minutes ago, mikeweil said:

There's a tradition in France and Great Britain of pianists playing "jazz", that is what they thought it to be at the time. The Thibaudet track belongs to that, in my ears.

I think of Bily Mayerl, or Jean Wiener. In Germany, Erwin Schulhoff and Paul Hindemith made money with playing in cabarets and even composed ragtimes and dance stuff. I rememer a letter by Hindemith where he offered it to his publisher as he thaught it would sell. (There was a lot of this before the Nazis put an end to this.) From this it is not very far to Ravel or Milhaud and their (genuine) insterest in jazz. To me. Gershwin belongs more into this tradition than jazz. Take someone like George Shearing coming out of this tradition.

The Cuban and Carribean pianists playing dance stuff with their conservatory training is a similar stream, take Lecuona.

Everything you wrote makes complete sense to me, except perhaps for the George Shearing reference.  

[mikeweil]

Take away the bebop from Shearing and listen to his solo piano pieces. 

Here's Jean Wiener's take on Gershwin, recorded 1928:

 

 

Of course they do not swing like the American black pianists. Gershwin swung , in his way.

Edited January 31 by mikeweil

[Teasing the Korean]

Too bad Ivan Evans or whatever his name is didn't criticize An American in Paris.  It has some really beautiful themes, but is way too bombastic for my taste, and seems to go on forever.  Every time I play it, I think I'm in the mood for it, and then I can't wait for it to end.

[medjuck]

Serious question: What does "masterpiece" mean?   From the dictionary I get that it's the best piece of one person OR a great  piece of work regardless of who created it. I like Gershwin but does anyone really call RIB his greatest piece of work? 

As to posterity:  In 100 years no one will remember anyone of us on this board or Ethan Iverson, but I think they will remember Gershwin. (  I could be wrong-- I often am.) 

 

[JSngry]

These days, a "masterpiece"  is whatever you can program to get butts in the seats that wouldn't ordinarily be there.

So beware. Especially of the doubly desperate "modern masterpiece". 

Hype is the enemy of understanding, and it's very good at its job. 

[danasgoodstuff]

Iverson's article is hype too.

[soulpope]

4 hours ago, mikeweil said:

Gershwin swung , in his way.

Yep ....