Polydor Records

[Holy Ghost]

Jazz peeps: Whgaty do you know about the label Polydor

It looks like with my skim research on this board, that no thread exists on this label...tell me more. I understand that it seems that Germany and Britian in the early part of the century created Polydor. I want to know in the 60's why they went out jazz, and signed Marion Brown and John McLaughlin among others. Weren't they initally associated with classical, in collaboration with maybe Phillips?

What you guys know about Polydor and their jazz program?

[JSngry]

They handled ECM in the US before Warner Brothers.

[Big Beat Steve]

Polydor was EVERYWHERE. It was THE #1 record label in Germany from 1945 until some time in the 60s or 70s. Up to 1953 with a red label, then with the typical orange-colored label, later (from the 60s onwards) with a red label again. They released virtually any style of non-classical music over here, and (from what I have seen and/or have in my collection) were present in the UK, France and Sweden too (plus certainly other countries too that I am not too familiar with). Even Australia! 

German Polydor released jazz LPs from the 50s onwards. A Polydor catalog from August, 1954, lists a handful of jazz items, listed specifically as "Records for Export". I have some of them - German pressings but English liner notes. But no doubt these "export" records were sold in Germany just as well. 
Though the affiliations and links with other countries and labels are hard to pin down and would certainly be a subject for record researchers. My copy of "Midnight in Munich" (45504 LPH) is a German pressing (English liner notes, cover printing date 09/55 according to the samll print) but I also have a copy of the same record with German liner notes and a different cover that is on Brunswick (86016 LPB) and has a cover printing date of 06/53. OTOH, my copy of "Jazz Made in Germany" (45508 LPH) is an AUSTRALIAN pressing ("Distributed by Philips Electrical Industries Pty. Ltd."). Same with, for example, the Kurt Edelhagen LP "Come On And Hear" (46001 LPHM): This catalog number is both on the German pressing (English liner notes) and the Australian pressing.
Similarly for pop (R'n'R-ish) and semi-jazz records I have seen (and bought) on French Polydor.

In some countries Polydor also released jazz records that were not just licensing deals but productions of their own, e.g. in Sweden  (Bertil Löfdahl quintet a.o.).

In later years Polydor seems to have struck licensing deals in all directions too: One of my Oscar Peterson LPs from the "Exclusively For My Friends" series (on MPS) is a UK pressing on Polydor (with MPS in the small print and the red Polydor label on the vinyl).  And depending on where and when you bought your records over here, you were just as likely to get the 40s jazz reissues on the Don Schlitten-produced Onyx Label not as a US Onyx pressing but on either German or UK Polydor (red Polydor label)!

These are just some I have and recall, but this shows that you were and are likely to bump into the Polydor label almost everywhere. 
So ... researchers, have a go!  

General info on the label history also is on Wikipedia.

 

Edited Saturday at 08:52 AM by Big Beat Steve

[Kevin Bresnahan]

My first recollections of the Polydor label was when I bought German imports of LPs by rock artists like The Who & Jimi Hendrix & those were actually on Track first, so Polydor wasn't the actual label. The first artist I remember buying of an artist signed by Polydor was Pat Travers.

[Holy Ghost]

So was Marion Brown, John McLaughlin, Stanley Cowell, signed to Polydor? When did Freedom and Black Lion come in the picture? Did they split the catalogue or is Freedom really a Black Lion imprint, or the other way around? 

[JSngry]

32 minutes ago, Holy Ghost said:

So was Marion Brown, John McLaughlin, Stanley Cowell, signed to Polydor? When did Freedom and Black Lion come in the picture? Did they split the catalogue or is Freedom really a Black Lion imprint, or the other way around? 

That all began with Alan Bates.

[Holy Ghost]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

That all began with Alan Bates.

This is where it gets interesting. Like was Black Lion a reissue lable only or signing artists too? Where does Freedom fit in? The more advant garde wing of Black Lion? Was Julius Hemphill, Andrew Hill, Archie Shepp, Freedom lable staples? Like Brilliant Corners, I've seen Polydor, Black Lion and Freedom forms of this record with all kinds of weird-ass cover art. What label did Stanely Cowell sign with, and do I have the original sleeve art as close as it can be? Here's the one I own:

 

About Alan Bates, did he "found" Black Lion in 1968 as a forward releasing label, or was it a reissue program? 

For example I have these Black Lion CDs:

 

Which is a Fontana issue, or 

Which is a Polydor release.

Confused!

 

Edited Saturday at 05:44 PM by Holy Ghost

[JSngry]

Black Lion Records - Wikipedia

https://share.google/xsMepK6SinGbUjs8p

RIP Alan Bates 1925-2023 (Black Lion / Candid Records) – and Tributes - UK Jazz News

https://share.google/DXPKAoAUyGgjFlfsX

[optatio]

6 hours ago, Holy Ghost said:

This is where it gets interesting. Like was Black Lion a reissue lable only or signing artists too? Where does Freedom fit in? The more advant garde wing of Black Lion? Was Julius Hemphill, Andrew Hill, Archie Shepp, Freedom lable staples? Like Brilliant Corners, I've seen Polydor, Black Lion and Freedom forms of this record with all kinds of weird-ass cover art. What label did Stanely Cowell sign with, and do I have the original sleeve art as close as it can be? Here's the one I own:

 

About Alan Bates, did he "found" Black Lion in 1968 as a forward releasing label, or was it a reissue program? 

For example I have these Black Lion CDs:

 

Which is a Fontana issue, or 

Which is a Polydor release.

Confused!

 

Freedom Records

• 1001: Marion Brown - Porto Novo *
• 1021: Ted Curson - Tears for Dolphy

* Quote:"Individual recordings were distributed via Polydor Records"

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Records 

Edited yesterday at 12:20 AM by optatio

[felser]

Per Wikipedia.  Much of this is news to me, I always thought Freedom was the original company, and that Black Lion somehow just picked up the rights in the early CD era.  This was fostered by the change in album covers, where I grew up with the Freedom covers, and the Black Lion CD's had all those (to me) inferior-looking black and white covers.

"Freedom Records was a jazz record label headed by Shel Safran^[1] and founded by Alan Bates as a division of Black Lion Records.^[2]

Individual recordings were distributed via Polydor Records and Transatlantic Records during the early 1970s before the company was bought by Arista Records with the imprint dubbed Arista/Freedom in 1975.^[3]"

  Here is an example of the covers:

And it actually looks like maybe neither of those was the original cover?:

[Holy Ghost]

18 minutes ago, felser said:

Per Wikipedia.  Much of this is news to me, I always thought Freedom was the original company, and that Black Lion somehow just picked up the rights in the early CD era.  This was fostered by the change in album covers, where I grew up with the Freedom covers, and the Black Lion CD's had all those (to me) inferior-looking black and white covers.

"Freedom Records was a jazz record label headed by Shel Safran^[1] and founded by Alan Bates as a division of Black Lion Records.^[2]

Individual recordings were distributed via Polydor Records and Transatlantic Records during the early 1970s before the company was bought by Arista Records with the imprint dubbed Arista/Freedom in 1975.^[3]"

  Here is an example of the covers:

And it actually looks like maybe neither of those was the original cover?:

The last sleeve is the original. I have the Black Lion, but downloaded a copy shot of the Polydor sleeve, and wrapped it around that blah blah, Black Lion Cd sleeve; I did the same for the Curson, Tears for Dolphy, like any weird jazz nerd would do🤔 

[optatio]

40 minutes ago, Holy Ghost said:

The last sleeve is the original. I have the Black Lion, but downloaded a copy shot of the Polydor sleeve, and wrapped it around that blah blah, Black Lion Cd sleeve; ...

I have both in my collection ...

[Big Beat Steve]

9 hours ago, felser said:

This was fostered by the change in album covers, where I grew up with the Freedom covers, and the Black Lion CD's had all those (to me) inferior-looking black and white covers.

A bit OT, because because I cannot add more about the Polydor connection of Freedom ...
But as for the black-and-white (predominantly black) Black Lion covers that you mention, they were very typical of Black Lion LPs, and these very often came on reissues of music not just a few years old, but decades-old, sometimes dating back to the 78 rpm era. In fact, Black Lion has always seemed like a reissue label to me (maybe my tastes dictated where I came across Black Lion LPs). Earlier Black Lions (released in the 70s and distributed by Intercord here, by Audiofidelity in the USA and by RCA (!) in France) had white covers and differently-styled artwork (reissuing music from Eddie Laguna's label and from the SwingTime label, for example). The typical black covers must have come along in the 80s (typically with LP catalog numbers in the 60000s). Those black ones reissued a lot from the Storyville label of the 50s (Ruby Braff, Zoot Sims/Bob Brookmeyer, Lee Konitz, Jackie and Roy, a.o.), but also some extremely early Miles Davis.
Not sure what you mean with "inferior-looking" covers, but to me the main snag with these was that they almost always used MODERN (very recent) photographs of the artists, which was extremely out of tune with the musical contents inside. 

Edited yesterday at 09:48 AM by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

Tony Williams Lifetime!!!!

[clifford_thornton]

13 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

A bit OT, because because I cannot add more about the Polydor connection of Freedom ...
But as for the black-and-white (predominantly black) Black Lion covers that you mention, they were very typical of Black Lion LPs, and these very often came on reissues of music not just a few years old, but decades-old, sometimes dating back to the 78 rpm era. In fact, Black Lion has always seemed like a reissue label to me (maybe my tastes dictated where I came across Black Lion LPs). Earlier Black Lions (released in the 70s and distributed by Intercord here, by Audiofidelity in the USA and by RCA (!) in France) had white covers and differently-styled artwork (reissuing music from Eddie Laguna's label and from the SwingTime label, for example). The typical black covers must have come along in the 80s (typically with LP catalog numbers in the 60000s). Those black ones reissued a lot from the Storyville label of the 50s (Ruby Braff, Zoot Sims/Bob Brookmeyer, Lee Konitz, Jackie and Roy, a.o.), but also some extremely early Miles Davis.
Not sure what you mean with "inferior-looking" covers, but to me the main snag with these was that they almost always used MODERN (very recent) photographs of the artists, which was extremely out of tune with the musical contents inside. 

There were certainly some Black Lion LPs that consisted of new or relatively new material -- Dexter Gordon Montmartre, Dollar Brand, Philly Joe Jones, and Ray Russell come to mind.

[GA Russell]

25 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

There were certainly some Black Lion LPs that consisted of new or relatively new material...

When I think of Black Lion, I think of Monk's post-Columbia sessions.

[Rooster_Ties]

Speaking of Black Lion (and Freedom)… …anyone have any insights about this date??

Philly Joe — Mo Joe (as it came out on Black Lion)

I used to have the presumably domestic (US) Black Lion CD issue of Mo Joe — and iirc, it might have been the second  worst sounding post-1950 studio jazz album I’ve ever heard (#1 being Stanley Cowell’s Brilliant Circles, at least as it came out on CD specially via Black Lion).

What’s the deal with Mo Joe?

I also vaguely remember the music itself being sorta promising — but the SQ was sure thick and chunky (unless I’m remembering wrong, been 15+ years since I’ve heard it / had my copy).

[Kevin Bresnahan]

3 hours ago, Rooster_Ties said:

Speaking of Black Lion (and Freedom)… …anyone have any insights about this date??

Philly Joe — Mo Joe (as it came out on Black Lion)

I used to have the presumably domestic (US) Black Lion CD issue of Mo Joe — and iirc, it might have been the second  worst sounding post-1950 studio jazz album I’ve ever heard (#1 being Stanley Cowell’s Brilliant Circles, at least as it came out on CD specially via Black Lion).

What’s the deal with Mo Joe?

I also vaguely remember the music itself being sorta promising — but the SQ was sure thick and chunky (unless I’m remembering wrong, been 15+ years since I’ve heard it / had my copy).

It's worse than the audio of Pete La Roca's "Turkish Women At The Bath"? That's hard to do.

[jazzbo]

When I think of Black Lion I think of Dexter, Webster and Griffin at Cafe Montmartre. The Muzak editions of these sound so darned good!

[JSngry]

How did they end up with that Essen date with Bud & Hawk?

[clifford_thornton]

The Essen date was a Danish Debut originally and Bates got that catalog.

I have the PJJ on Polydor UK and it sounds great. Fabulous session.

[JSngry]

So that's how Freedom ended up with Cecil's Nefertiti...? And some of the Ayler?

The revived Candid catalog seems to have vanished from the collective consciousness?

 

 

0h, how did Bates get that Debut catalog?

[clifford_thornton]

26 minutes ago, JSngry said:

So that's how Freedom ended up with Cecil's Nefertiti...? And some of the Ayler?

The revived Candid catalog seems to have vanished from the collective consciousness?

 

 

0h, how did Bates get that Debut catalog?

yes, the Cecil and Ayler stuff was on Debut (as well as Bley's "Touching") and then folded into Fontana under Bates' direction. Danish Debut was a fan club label that licensed some American Debut titles as well as releasing music by Danish musicians and visiting Americans... some of the Danish productions were licensed back to Fantasy in the '60s (Ayler, Taylor, Pettiford). Bates didn't seem to have much interest in picking up the titles by Danish artists, some of which have been reissued by various companies overt the years.

Earlier thread is here: 

 

[Rooster_Ties]

2 hours ago, Kevin Bresnahan said:

It's worse than the audio of Pete La Roca's "Turkish Women At The Bath"? That's hard to do.

Been close to 20 years since I’ve heard “Turkish Women” — and only briefly (must have had a friend spin theirs, I’m guessing — or I sampled it in-store, possibly — and I passed on it).

Perhaps I should start an entirely different thread for jazz studio albums that sound noticeably worse than their recording date would suggest they ought to.

Live — now that’s a whole different story — and the range of live recordings of every sort of sound quality have been issued (based on the import of the recording, usually).

But there can’t be more than a dozen (or perhaps two dozen) studio albums that truly sound way, WAY worse than they ought to. (I mean there’s “not particularly good” — and then there’s “inexplicably bad”.)

[JSngry]

26 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

yes, the Cecil and Ayler stuff was on Debut (as well as Bley's "Touching") and then folded into Fontana under Bates' direction. Danish Debut was a fan club label that licensed some American Debut titles as well as releasing music by Danish musicians and visiting Americans... some of the Danish productions were licensed back to Fantasy in the '60s (Ayler, Taylor, Pettiford). Bates didn't seem to have much interest in picking up the titles by Danish artists, some of which have been reissued by various companies overt the years.

Earlier thread is here: 

 

I get dizzy reading that!