An honest apparaisal of Mosaic sets

[connoisseur series500]

I just bought my first Mosaic set: the Duke Pearson Select.

It seems that this forum is dominated by those who view Mosaic box sets with the devotion of cult members. I am new to Mosaics so perhaps my opinion might reflect some objectivity.

Here's what I think:

On the plus side is the packaging, the pictures, and the booklet. Also on the plus side is the reasonable price. $39 for five cds worth of material along with a nice booklet represents outstanding value.

I do have some major complaints however. The mastering downright sucks. I sold a couple of Duke Pearson JRVGs in anticipation of buying the Select, and the difference in sonic quality is disconcerting. Those JRVGs sound so much better, it's not funny. I have to jam up my volume to hear some of the songs. Duke's piano doesn't sound clear on several of the tracks. Crappy job of mastering.

There is a curious song chronology as well. The tunes for "I Don't Care Who Knows It" get split up into at least two of the discs and the songs seem to be put together in pell mell order. Maybe that's not important to some of us, but I think it would be nice to have the tunes all arranged according to the released cds.

I was planning to purchase the Stanley Turrentine Mosaic set and felt that I could sell my TOCJ versions of "Chip Off the Old Block," and "Jubilee Shout." I now have changed my mind. I'm not getting rid of my Japanese masterings for those crappy Mosaic masterings. No way!

I've just made my first and last Mosaic purchase.

BTW, I like most of the tunes on the Duke Pearson Select. I do like his later stuff. He really is an undeservedly ignored composer and pianist.

Edited April 14, 2004 by connoisseur series500

[Brad]

I think it would be a mistake to say you'll buy no more Mosaics. But before we get there, it is true that there has been some criticism of the masterings. I think if you have the JRVGs or TOCJs of what's on a set, I wouldn't bother myself. That's why I didn't pick up the Reese. On the other hand let's take at the reason why you should buy Mosaic sets. Curtis Amy and the Charlie Ventura/Flip Phillips Mosaics are Exhibit A. Except for Katanga, everything on the Amy set has been unavailable on cd. Similar for the Ventura/Phillips set. Ditto for the Buddy DeFranco-Clark set, except for the Japanese reissues. I could be wrong but the Japanese Verves of the latter set haven't been out that long. That is Exhibit A.

Mosaic has reissued material that either hasn't been available on cd or wasn't then available on cd (but is now). They perform an incredible service for us jazz fans. Where else could I be able to get the forthcoming Woody Herman set. Vinyl is possible but not as accessible as in one package.

Before you discount them entirely, I suggest you buy a full Mosaic, not the Selects. There you will see all that they're worth.

There is countless music that we wouldn't be able to enjoy but for them. Have you read how Michael discovered the Roulette masters for the Stitt material in some dusty areas in London. I could go on and on and others probably will but if you sell Mosaic short, you're making a mistake.

[sal]

I'm sorry that you didn't like the sound on your Duke Pearson set, conn500. I don't have the Pearson set, so I can't comment on that one in particular. However, I can honestly say that I've found the sound on Mosaic sets to be quite good for the most part. I have four Mosaic box sets and six Selects, and the only discs out of all that music that I would say does not have superior sound is the first disc of the Turrentine set and the first disc of the Moncur Select. Two discs out of what.....nearly fifty?? Not too bad. Its hard to do better than that buying single disc reissues or even box sets by other companies. Its unfortunate that your first Mosaic experience was a bad one. Hopefully sometime down the line you'll give them another chance and your opinion will become more positive. Best of luck to you!

[connoisseur series500]

Thanks for your thoughts, Sal.

As Brad says, Mosaic reissues a lot of stuff that is unavailable elsewhere on cd. I do believe, however, that most of these sessions will find their way on cd format as Blue Note continues to reissue things.

I really like good masterings. That's why I pay the hefty price for Japanese issues and why I tend to upgrade by buying the new RVGs as they come out. If I find an older issue has good sound then I don't upgrade. I think, for example, that the sonics of the domestic version of Bobby Hutcherson's "Happenings" is quite good. The sound of the domestic version of Jackie Maclean's "Demon Dance," on the other hand, is awful. These things have to be judged individually.

[DrJ]

Well I'm a bit surprised if the Pearson select is that bad. Even though McMaster does some of the Selects, they haven't been too bad so far in my estimation. But you owe it to yourself to check out some of the Mosaics (Select or "full") done by Malcom Addey, NO inferior sound there and in fact they blow away just about any Japanese reissue I have in my collection. The Johnny Hodges and Duke Ellington Reprise sets are a couple of the best sounding reissues you are apt to hear on standard CD, as is the Randy Weston Select.

With "full" Mosaics you also get incredible booklets with most of the sets - the type of detailed annotation, commentary, and discography that great musicians deserve.

Also note that Cuscuna does sometimes put songs in original LP order, when it either seems logical or when feedback from potential buyers dictates it. But because the later Pearson albums were basically pell-mell assembly jobs there is not a good reason I can see to put the tracks in album order. The Mosaic norm is to go with session order, which may break up LPs but also allows you to in many cases pick up on artist development and things that happened within a session you might miss otherwise. It's a personal thing but there is a method to the madness.

I would for these reasons definitely withold judgement on Mosaic if I were you, you're potentially missing out otherwise. I have over 40 sets now (Selects included) and can honestly say that they constitute the backbone of what I feel is a pretty darn good collection.

Edited April 14, 2004 by DrJ

[Rooster_Ties]

Pretty much what DrJ just said, goes for me too.

[RDK]

Yes, don't discount the entire label over just the Pearson Select. The Mosaics have always seemed on the pricey side to me, but they're generally worth it and hold their value very well. They also often contain material not available anywhere else - which makes price and quality comparisons irrelevent. I agree that many TOCJ's sound better, but at $20 or more for the imports (usually without any extra tracks) you can't really compare them that way either. (The Pearson Select costs $39, but if you were able to buy the individual LPs as TOCJ's they likely run you closer to a hundred bucks.)

As noted, your disatisfaction with the track order has to do, in this case, with some of Pearson's later albums being compiled from several different sessions. In this case, Cuscuna left them in session order, but many of the Mosaic sets are compiled in original LP order with any bonus tracks following.

[wesbed]

I've just made my first and last Mosaic purchase.

Sorry about your negative first experience with Mosaic. For what it's worth, I believe the Duke Pearson Select to be the worst of Mosaic. Which is to say, the worst of the best. I have the Duke Pearson set. I almost want to make a CD-R of the Christmas music and send the box back to Cuscuna every time I see it taking up space on my shelf. I don't believe it to be something for Mosaic to be proud of.

You'd have been much better served with the Bennie Green, the Curtis Amy, the John Patton, or what the hell, ANY of the other Selects.

I was very impressed with the my recent purchase of the Tristano/Konitz Mosaic. And, VERY, VERY, VERY impressed with both Vee Jay Mosaics (an outstanding remastering effort from Malcolm Addey). I say, phooey, to any TOCJ/JRVG, that I've heard, being better, soundwise, than the Vee Jay Mosaic/Addey boxes.

I, too, plan to purchase the Turrentine Mosaic sometime soon.

Edited April 14, 2004 by wesbed

[LAL]

And one wouldn't be able to get music of some pre-bop artists (Mildred Bailey, Django, Bix/Tram/Teagarden, Berigan etc) elsewhere in better sound and with such comprehensive or complete selections. In this respect, even classic jazz reissue specialists (JSP, Jazz Oracle) couldn't compete in terms of sound quality since they don't get access to the masters.

I've also been introduced to countless Blue Note gems by the likes of Curtis Fuller, Sam Rivers and Thad Jones via Mosaic sets - music which I otherwise would never have thought of exploring either due to unavailability or excessive cost of just one album (i.e. Japanese Blue Note reissues).

If I had to buy items from only ONE music label, it would be Mosaic.

Edited April 14, 2004 by LAL

[Claude]

I didn't like the sound of the Moncur set and found it worse than McMaster's previous remasterings of some of the same sessions for the Connoisseur reissues. Why did he remaster them again anyway, as the previous reissues were only a few years old?

[wesbed]

The Mosaics have always seemed on the pricey side to me, but they're generally worth it and hold their value very well.  They also often contain material not available anywhere else - which makes price and quality comparisons irrelevent.

RDK: I don't mean to use your words against you or quote your words out of context. Forgive me if I have done so. Your words inspired a lot of thoughts about Mosaic.

I disagree that the Mosaic sets are pricey. However, I agree that the sets are generally worth the price and do hold their value (although I won't be selling any of mine). If I choose to rid myself of the Pearson Select, it's going back to Cuscuna.

I recently purchased the Miles Davis Complete at the Blackhawk set. Four disks at a total price of $50 = $12.50 per disk. There aren't a lot of nice pictures in the two CD inserts. Only pictures of Miles. What about Hank Mobley and Wynton Kelly? Were they not at the Blackhawk with Miles? The remastering is good but not incredibly good. Overall, though, a very enoyable box set. Common sense (not facts) tells me that Columbia has a much larger market than Mosaic and, therein, could give a bit of a price reduction due to sales volume.

A Mosaic Select contains three disks at $40 per set = $13.33 per disk. The set contains the original liner notes plus, sometimes, new notes written by Cuscuna, the man himself. The Selects contain color duplications of the original album art plus several black & white pictures of ALL the session players. I'll gladly pay the less-than-one-dollar difference per disk, in this example, to purchase a Mosaic Select box. As RDK writes, a Mosaic reissue will probably hold it's value in the secondary market much better than, say, a Columbia reissue.

I don't mean to be a 'Mosaic hack' with my typing and blabbing about Mosaic, of late. Mosaic is not perfect. The following words are presented as a more critical view of Mosaic.

I love the hell out of the Vee Jay sets. But, all those alternate takes? I like the idea of the alternate takes but I'll generally program my CD player to bypass most of them. I paid for 12 disks (six disks per set) but received only about 6 disks worth of unique music.

I enjoy the Bix/Tram box. But, some of the stuff on the set is not necessarily the 'best of jazz.' Some sides are quite good but some make me want to place peanut butter in my ears. Some of the set is very enjoyable on a historical level but only mildly enjoyable for day-to-day listening.

Overall, I enjoy the Blue Mitchell Mosaic box. To tell the truth, though, some of the tunes remind me of a re-hash after re-hash of Sidewinder-like material. The playing is very good. The sound is very good. But, how many Sidewinders does one need in a box set?

The Duke Pearson Select. It has its high points -- the Christmas songs and The Phantom. It has its low points -- can you say, 'Lawrence Welk Goes to Church?' On my first listen-through to the Duke Pearson box I thought, 'Is Cuscuna serious? This is a Mosaic product?' I had a friend visiting on that fateful night. He is another poster from this board, to be exact. We sat on my couch and laughed our asses clean-off at parts of the Pearson box. I paid $40 for THIS? Gimme a friggin' break, Mosaic.

With this said, I like Mosaic very much. I believe Mosaic does a very good job, overall, and offers a competitive price when considering that Mosaic sells to a very specialized market. I will continue to purchase Mosaic's product. I will continue to anxiously await the delivery of said product. I will continue to get butterflies in my stomach and a smile on my face when I open each new Mosaic box.

Conn500: It makes me feel a little let-down that you spent your money and anxiously awaited the delivery of a top-quality product, only to be disappointed by it. I suggest, make a CD-R of the parts of the Pearson box that you enjoy. Then send it back to Cuscuna and let him eat the cost. Even when considering my own words, here, I will admit that I don't have the guts to send my Pearson Select back.

Edited April 14, 2004 by wesbed

[jazzbo]

Yeah, I"m sorry you were disappointed by the Pearson (haven't heard that one YET but just purchased it from a board member) but there are many many in print gems in their holdings right now. I urge you to give them a second chance, either the Weston Select, or a full Mosaic set such as one of the VeeJays or if you are interested in the music one of the early jazz box sets, or the excelent Teagarden Roulette set. . . . They're a wonderful company. My enthusiasm flagged a bit but then they started reissuing twenties and thirties material and got my attention again!

[connoisseur series500]

Conn500: It makes me feel a little let-down that you spent your money and anxiously awaited the delivery of a top-quality product, only to be disappointed by it. I suggest, make a CD-R of the parts of the Pearson box that you enjoy. Then send it back to Cuscuna and let him eat the cost. Even when considering my own words, here, I will admit that I don't have the guts to send my Pearson Select back.

I'm keeping the box set. A poor job of mastering is still better than not having the music. And I do happen to like the later Duke Pearson stuff.

Thanks for everyone's comments. I gotta go to work.

[Dan Gould]

Paul,

I second the suggestions that you consider a full Mosaic set before writing off the company forever.

Remember that while the Selects are a good value, they are not what has made Mosaic's reputation and they aren't the reason that as you said, some "view Mosaic box sets with the devotion of cult members."

The remastering (usually), the attention to detail, the LP size box in classic black & white, the photography and the informative booklet and the attempt to include all music recorded are the reasons why Mosaic gets so many thumbs up.

Its unfortunate that your first purchase did not thrill you beyond compare, but you may disappointed, or at least wait a very long time, if you write off Mosaic and wait for regular reissues of the music they offer.

[undergroundagent]

Here's the deal...

I like Mosaics, but like all box sets, I just don't listen to them. I'd much rather have the individual CDs as I will reach for them more often.

I think you're the same, Paul. I hope your motivation for buying the Select wasn't based on the "Phantom" being unissued. In fact, it's going to be reissued at the end of June on Water Records. I'd stick to the individual discs.

[Tjazz]

It seems that this forum is dominated by those who view Mosaic box sets with the devotion of cult members.

Yeah, I worship the almightly Mosaic

Please delivery me from temptation.

Course, please note there have been alot of 'worse of' Mosaic threads posted.

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=6008

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=8791

[jones]

Thumbs up to Malcom Addey. Try something he's mastered--he works magic with big band recordings.

[wesbed]

Thumbs up to Malcom Addey. Try something he's mastered--he works magic with big band recordings.

And any other old jazz he gets his hands on.

[ghost of miles]

Conn, you might want to beware of the Turrentine set--it came in for a great deal of criticism regarding audio quality either here or on the old BNBB. You might also want to go for only the sets that Malcolm Addey does. Sound is not as big an issue for me, so I can live with the McMasters, but I've seen so many unhappy postings about his work that I have to give them some credibility.

I'd suggest trying one of the big black boxes, such as the aforementioned (and soon to be vanished) Tristano/Konitz/Marsh box. Well-annotated, good sound, and great music to be found there.

Edited April 14, 2004 by ghost of miles

[J.A.W.]

I'd suggest trying one of the big black boxes, such as the aforementioned (and soon to be vanished) Tristano/Konitz/Marsh box. Well-annotated, good sound, and great music to be found there.

..and remastered by Malcolm Addey.

[RDK]

I'm really sorry Wes that I made you write so much! No offense taken, though. I do think that the regular Mosaic sets *seem* pricey at first glance - not the Selects, which I think are a great deal - especially if one is used to buying mid-priced RVGs or used CDs in general. There's also that whole 8 or 9 discs at a time thing. To me they become extremely cost-effective when they have more than one session or original album on a disc. As I mentioned, a 3-disc Mosaic might have the equivelant of 4 or 5 (or even 6) Tocj's on it.

Regardless, we all seem to agree that Conn 500 needs to buy some more!

[Tjazz]

I do have some major complaints however. The mastering downright sucks. I sold a couple of Duke Pearson JRVGs in anticipation of buying the Select, and the difference in sonic quality is disconcerting. Those JRVGs sound so much better, it's not funny. I have to jam up my volume to hear some of the songs. Duke's piano doesn't sound clear on several of the tracks. Crappy job of mastering.

There is a curious song chronology as well. The tunes for "I Don't Care Who Knows It" get split up into at least two of the discs and the songs seem to be put together in pell mell order. Maybe that's not important to some of us, but I think it would be nice to have the tunes all arranged according to the released cds.

Gee, I was planning on getting the Duke Pearson SELECT.

(You can always re-arrange the tunes on a cdr)

[sjarrell]

To me they become extremely cost-effective when they have more than one session or original album on a disc.

I recently got the Donaldson set, 6 discs contaning 10 SESSIONS! Less than 10 bucks per Lou LP, most out of print. That's just about the best bargain going. And there's 9 LPs worth of material on the 6 disc Mobley. I heart Mosaic.

[connoisseur series500]

I do have some major complaints however.  The mastering downright sucks.  I sold a couple of Duke Pearson JRVGs in anticipation of buying the Select, and the difference in sonic quality is disconcerting.  Those JRVGs sound so much better, it's not funny.  I have to jam up my volume to hear some of the songs.  Duke's piano doesn't sound clear on several of the tracks.  Crappy job of mastering.

There is a curious song chronology as well.  The tunes for "I Don't Care Who Knows It" get split up into at least two of the discs and the songs seem to be put together in pell mell order.  Maybe that's not important to some of us, but I think it would be nice to have the tunes all arranged according to the released cds. 

Gee, I was planning on getting the Duke Pearson SELECT.

(You can always re-arrange the tunes on a cdr)

It still might be worth getting in that "It Can Only Happen To You" and "The Phantom" are impossible to find individually. Then "How Insensitive" and "Merry Ole Soul" are available as expensive JRVGs.

Might as well go for the crappy mastering for only $39.

Other option is to be on Organissimo all day long and jump on Grey's JRVG auctions.

[Tjazz]

Since I'm part of the cult, I don't have any control.