Big Beat Steve

Thanks for that comment. This one has been on my shopping list at Amazon for some time but for some reason (some mention somewhere on the web?) I had been a bit wary. I am not quite sure what kind of interpretation (or evaluation if that is what you mean) you'd want from a book like this but I do wonder if the info in the book is deep enough and goes far enough beyond other commonly accessible sources that "also" deal with King to warrant the purchase. For the time being and for the pictorial part of that subject I got myself "King Records of Cincinnati" by Randy McNutt in the "Images of America" book series and that one is nice for its rather affordable price.

Sorry but I beg to agree to disagree here. I'd rather arrive at my own conclusions and do not necessarily need a scholar to foist them unto me as the final truth. Particularly so since the way you compare lack of interpretation in a book with "straight" playing of sheet music makes you sound like it is perfectly OK to arrive at ANY kind of result of the interpretation of history, no matter how erroneous it is, because interpretation is an end in itself. After all books like the Ladnier one by necessity are first and above all presentations of history and a GOOD book on historical matters collates and exposes the facts into a coherent complete picture that still leaves room for the reader to do a fair bit of judgment on his own if he feels like it. And if books on historical matters succeed e.g. in highlighting the subject's position, role and importance in the context of his times then this is interpretation enough for me. (This is what I meant above by combining the facts and research results into a complete picture that is more than the sum of its individual components) Or, to name just one example, should I really take grossly skewed interpretational results like the role of Coleman Hawkins in the development of bebop blown all out of proportion in Scott DeVeaux' Birth of BeBop book at face value just because this is the valued interpretational part of the book? This is one case where interpretational zeal backfires in a BIG way. And STILL it its a fine and readable book for the HISTORICAL FACTS it portrays.

Possibly a valid point. Depends on one's personal angle. But if I want to read everything about the TIMES and LIFE of a musician then obviously I will be quite content with what you call a "source book", provided the narrative works everything into one all-encompassing story that comnbines individual facts and research results in one overall picture (making the overall total more than the sum of the individual elements). Am not quite sure where large-scale "interpretation" would come in (i.e. where it would HAVE TO come in in each case). BTW, if you are after interpretation of matters historical, why not go and get yourself a copy of "Come In And Hear The Truth - Jazz And Race On 52nd Street" by Patrick Bourke and choke on the word "race" being elaborated on in every other sentence. :D A HIGHLY interpretative opus, that's for sure! (and one that's HEAVY on footnotes) Not that I'd say this is a bad book (the subject is interesting) but I had to put it aside for the time being after having reached the beginning of Chapter 2 because it really is a chunk to digest. It's a very small line to losing the broader view because of all the interpretations going on.

I'll take YOUR word for it anytime. But did you really have to make it THAT hard for me to decide whether I can bring myself to having this put aside for Xmas?

Not that I am really surprised ... Having had somewhat so-so previous experience (see my comments on the Kenny Clarke bio translation above) I was VERY wary and really would not have wanted to touch that Impulse book at Zweitausendeins with a ten-foot pole - though it sat there for an uncommonly long time and at an attractive price (and probably still does, so it must be hard to shift, maybe because others fear the same annoying translation screwups).

Thanks for the info. So I guess I might find a mail notification to that effect in my inbox at home later today too. Well, now I'll have to make up my mind: Should I look forward to getting the book into my hands ASAP or should I tell my better half to grab it when the mailman knocks and stow it out of (my) sight and hold it as a Xmas present for me?? Definitely a worthy present but such a long wait?? :D

Couldn't possibly be so. The Fats Navarro bio is significantly lighter than the Bob inman Scwing Era Scrapbook but isn't THAT much cheaper. : Anyway, the sample pages from the Ladnier book linked above look promising so I am really looking forward to receiving my copy which hopefully should be on its way by now.

@RJ Spangler: Check this: http://www.scarecrowpress.com/Catalog/Mult...1&AllReqd=T As you can see they are masterminded by Institute ofr Jazz Studies at Rutgers Univ. so that spells quality. But they are not exactly cheap (which was the point made above). I have only a couple of the books published in that series (Terry Gibbs autobio., Bob inman's Swing Era Scrapbook, and the recently published and much-cited Fats Navarro bio. comes from that series too) so I cannot comment on the whole series. But if you check out the series of books they published (they are at No. 59 or so now) you will see it's a VERY eclectic series that is not afraid to go where hardly any historian/publisher dares to tread (ever expected to see a bio on 20s orchestra musician Sylvester Ahola?)

@Big Wheel: Isn't the irony rather in the fact that some seem to claim that the outfit doesn't matter yet sneer at those who really take care of their outfit? Note the fine difference: Tom S. was referring to those who sneered at musicians wearing suits and NOT (necessarily) to those who sneered at musicians wearing suits and having not much to say. That's a HUGE difference. I'd venture a guess there are many who do take pride in appearing well-dressed yet have a LOT to say on their horns. So those who sneer at THAT would be well advised to rethink because if the outfit doesn't matter then a smart outfit per se doesn't matter either and there is nothing to sneer about. And it's not about being ironic yourself. The irony comes from what you do, regardless of whether you meant it to be ironic. Splitting hairs? I'd rather say it's a fine line that can make all the diffrence.

Thanks! Corrected it in my (as yet unread) copy.

Je rejoins les autres: Joyeux anniversaire! All the best and many happy returns

Be that as it may as far as forum policies are concerned, but THIS: is a very, very valid point IMHO. And it shows how absurd the said board rules are.

I don't like Kaempfert's music and could never be bothered enough to get any of his records into my collection at all but following his TV documentary and listening to some of his music afterwards it just has to be said he did have guts in his musical convictions and in what he aspired for in "popular ORCHESTRA music" (note the difference between "Orchestra music" and jazz/r&b/rock etc "orchestra" music). Not my cuppa tea at all but still ... So there's no more need to put him down than there is to put down contemporary bandleaders (AND jazz sellouts to boot) such as Horst Jankowski and his silly "Black Forest Sleigh Ride" nonsense (that still seems to dim the minds of befuddled U.S. ebay sellers who regularly list his MOR pop platters as "jazz"). Unfathomable over here ... Not to speak of the even more blatantly commercial U.S. MOR, easy listening, background music orchestras that plagued the music scene of the 50s, 60s etc. that were REALLY, REALLY, REALLY awful stylewise and yet are often being touted as being oh so great in giving hungry jazzmen ample bread to eat when they were called in to put their craft (NOT their inspiration ) at the orchestra leaders' disposal there.

Hey, just kidding ... and I suppose you know.

Yeah, nice story. But please, MG, don't keep on spilling the beans from that book in public! I've still got to continue with "How Britan Got The Blues" before I can make any serious progress with "Record Makers and Breakers" which is awaiting me on my bookshelf! :D Anybody seen Bop Girl Goes Calypso anytime in recent decades? It's one of those flicks that crops up in books about r'n'r/teen/JD movies of the 50s but seems to remain off the screen otherwise. I mean, the very idea hatched by music music moguls at that time, i.e. promoting calypso as the next biggest thing that would immediately oust r'n'r, was as dead as a doornail by the time the first calypso records hit the TEEN record stalls back then. Sure calypso had a certain following and still has some oldie appeal, but considering it was supposed to replace r'n'r as an even bigger TEEN fad then it really just was a (minuscule) flash in the pan.

If it is fiction - yes. Otherwise - no (virtually every time anyway).

Ah, that must have been the one who wrote the song that Fat Navarro etc. recorded on Blue Note 559. :D

Ha, soulmate!! OT and just for you: You know that one (passed on to me by an engineer, but still ...)? What's it that dogs and engineers have in common? They both can't express themselves. Yowza! Now back to the topic.

Oh, I like that one! MG Me too! Great and fitting name. There is a shop in Frankfurt (Germany) that used to specialize in punk etc. underground records and goes by the name of SICK WRECKORDS It has since expanded to all sorts of subculture music, including R&B and rockabilly, but still quite a fitting name. And would anbody venture a guess as to who was the favorite artist of that Munich jazz record shop called BIRD'S NEST RECORDS?

Last time I checked, that was how life in general works... I know but I also seem to remember there was a time (still is, upon the most recent checkup) where the WWW platforms such as forums and discussion groups were hailed as THE huge outlet for direct democracy, for direct exchange, for giving people a voice as a way of direct communication and interchange that specificyllly undermined the tendency of silencing voices considered obstinate or undesirable by the powers-that-be in more more conventional communication channels etc. etc. etc. But boasting about installing "commonwealth" forums out of purely altruistic motivations that were only supposed to serve the general dialogue of those who share a common interest/hobby - where upon scrutiny (which isn't even that much closer) you realize it's all about commercial or personal interests and trying to channel and streamline those who still won't fit the pattern, then ... ho hum ... Not that I was really suprised about the outcome of what I described above. Long before I was actually ousted I realized it was actually only a matter of time but what really galled (and alarmed) me was how many others in the forum complacently let themselves be lulled in and dragged along by a nose ring.

Here is another one who's been kicked off a forum before. Though a forum on a totally different hobby/interest, not music-related at all. In a nutshell, the key problem with that forum was/is that it is run by a bunch of people who have vested commercial interests in that particular hobby (which has a lot of sellers and service providers) though they kept repating their commercial acitvities and the forum were strictly separate. At one point the clash of interests culminated between their commercial interests and certain general trends and evolutions as their practices in the long run would have been to the detriment of the individual consumer/collector as he might have been exposed to a near-monopoly situation (where again the originators of that forum would have had a hand in). On several occasions I objected both to the forced silencing of those who openly spoke out against such practices and also queried any conflicts of interest on the forum bosses (conflicts of interest that were manifest to those who were willing to see). Upon being admonished in a private e-mail by one of the bigwigs that I was to refrain from questioning the appropriateness of the ousting of said forum members I made it clear in no uncertain terms that I still vehemently disapproved of their ousting. And bang - my account was blocked. And I was one of a lot of forumists who shared the same fate. By now that forum is reduced to a pretty dreary affair as a lot of others quit on their own. What you state, Allen, is typical for a lot of internet forums, I am afraid. Get in the way of the bigwigs and their doings and you'are out. Too many forums are considered good and appreciated only as long as they serve the purposes of those who originate them (i.e. by drawing off the constructive input of the forum members) but as soon as it becomes clear that the main forte of any forum, i.e. providing a platform for people to speak their minds publicly on controversial matters as well as on matters of common interest where on a one-to-one basis they would be all too easy to be silenced if they go against the grain of the bigwigs then out the window goes the openness if it becomes blatantly clear that that openness challenges the commercial or personal interests of those who set up the forum in the first place. I therefore really appreciate the decent way this O forum is handled in a way that is not overbearing in the way it is all too often the case elsewhere.

@EKE BBB: You mentioned earlier a chapter from this book has been published in the IAJRC journal. Was this an unabridged, unchanged excerpt of the book? (I assume you have seen the entire book too) If it was in fact reprinted more or less verbatim then I'd say what's good enough for the IAJRC can't be that bad.

First of all, you are wrong. Not counting shipping, it its 40 euros for the book itself, not 55. Secondly, given that reasoning, most book publications in such highly specialized fields (epsecially in ours) would be pointless and overpriced and a ripoff. I don't feel that way because it always is a tradeoff of what you get for your money, i.e. how much went into it. And I am willing to reverse my advance judgment and trust if (IF!!!) upon receipt of the book the contents were sloppily thrown together and the lauding seen here and on the website are way over the top. But I doubt I'll have to. But I guess in the end we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. BTW, yes - I did have to swallow deep when I first saw the price tag of the Fats Navarro bio. And by comparison with what that Noone bio seems to offer in the way of illustrations alone (which no doubt account for a good deal of the production cost), the Fats bio falls way short. And yet no one (don't remember if you intervened in the debate) seemed to have complained about the price when it was discussed here at length. If it therefore is a matter of one book being considered more essential than another then why reduce this aspect to a question of price? THAT is just matter of personal preferences and of how much one si willing to shell out for any given product but that definitely is not a question of a price being OBJECTIVELy too high, so why bother?

MY order went out at noon. Hope I won't be too late for this limited run. In what way? In view of the fact that this book is virtually published PRIVATELY without any huge publisher's backing behind it, I find this price rather decent. And how would you rate the price of the the entire "Studies In Jazz" U.S. publications (very likely run by a better funded publishing organisation and with more resources to offset or cross-fund publishing costs) by comparison then? As for shipping, do you have any idea of what many US sellers charge for overseas shipping of books that do not happen to fit the Flat Rate Priority envelopes? So things really aren't worse than the other way round. In fact I have a hunch you overseas buyers are being subsidized by the publishers by upmarking rates for European customers on this anyway. 11.50 euros just for Economy shipping from France to neighboring Germany is pretty hefty - would be so even for that (in international shipping) useless "Colissimo" shipping which does not even apply here as this is an "Economy" rate only. Compared to that 21 euros for worldwide priority isn't that bad. I don't really mind in this particular case as to me the overall final price is what counts (and to a point I can even understand those publishers' point if they picture a huge share of their takers as being from overseas).

So you did take up the matter with him and set him straight? Did he dare to admit his fallacy?