Big Beat Steve

What do you mean? The Gramercy Five recording? It must have been reissued a zillion times. http://www.amazon.com/Artie-Shaw-Complete-Gramercy-Sessions/dp/B000002WBD Never mind the sick prices charged THERE. Even disregarding the dopwnload alternative, this is potential special offer bin fare.

Ah, I see! Thanks for enlightening me. And a special THANKS for that website link! Right down my alley, the subject of that site!

A seminal figure. RIP

Maybe that's because Buddy Collette wasa quite different personality and epxerienced and handled the same period and location in quite a different way? I remember reading the first part of the Central Avenue Sounds book (gave up for the second half as the book IS a bit repetitive the way it's structured) and what struck me, among other things, was that most everybody (both in that book and in other sources too) semed to agree when talking about the early Westcoast years of Charles Mingus: He was gifted (though he seemed to have taken a while to really get on course), had great ideas but apart from the musical impact he left they all remembered him as a notorious hotspur and irascible person who wasn't one to avoid confrontations.

... which is another of those Fantasy twofers, judging from the catalogue number? Have you ever compared their contents to the OJCCDs? Is it all out on CD, too? I really cannot tell you. I compared the contents to the usual discographies, found it covered the ground pretty thoroughly as far as master takes are concerned and that was good enough for me. As you know I am pretty much a vinyl junkie so I felt no need to compare things with any later CD releases (as I had the music anyway). In fact, given the huge amount of CD reissues that you have to inspect for duplications with what you already have (if you want to get what is unavailable on vinyl or other reissues) you are glad for ANY CD reissues you do NOT have to worry about. Haven't seen or compared that one either but I guess you are just missing what's on the vinyl twofer but not on the single CD. And then the question if you are "missing" anything depends on how much you are into this early 50s Red Norvo trio music and how essential it is for you to go the whole way. I know I would have missed a lot. In fact a very long time ago (long before I got my hands on the Savoy 2-LP set) I bought a twofer on the French "Monkey" label (they reissued a whole series of jazz in the mid-70s with quite interesting vintage stuff unavailable elsehere at the time - it introduced me to the Fats Waller piano rolls, for example) that was credited to Charles Mingus and included mid-50s sessions done under his own name on one LP but Red Norvo trio sessions (with Mingus) from the Savoy catalog on the other. So arithmetically I already had almost half of that Savoy twofer and yet did not regret buying it one second. But that's just me ...

Somehow the original Aladdin covers don't look all that rare to me, maybe because French EMI did pretty nice facsimile reissues of the two LPs in the 80s (which I was very glad to snap up at the time). Now which of the ones apart from the yellow/blue and green/pink one here is NOT a Warhol-ish fake but existed actually?

You are right, my fault - the trio twofer with Raney and Farlow as well as Mitchell is on Prestige P-24108. Additional material from the 1955 Norvo/Farlow/Mitchell trio is on "Tal Farlow - Guitar Player" (Pestige P-24042).

I cannot comment on the CD reissue above but essentially I agree with King Ubu's comments about the track selection. I for one would not part with my Savoy twofer LP SJL 2212 which includes the entire commercial output of the trio with Mingus (the Raney/Mitchell trio output is on another twofer). It therefore corresponds to the CD, except that it has only part of the alternate takes (but honestly, are FOUR versions of Godchild that essential?). FWIW, there is at least one other source that adds to the recorded legacy of that trio: Natural Organic LP 7001 has transcriptions done by the trio in 1950-51 in Chicago; some tracks are versions of the commercially released tunes, others are totally new. These tracks are VERY interesting for an aural comparison. In many details they confirm the general trend of transcriptions vs commercial releases, i.e. they were just that little bit more free-wheeling (difficult to achieve with the virtuosity of the Norvo trio, I know ...). According to Bruyninckx, the (Italian) Queen Disc LP Q-061 has the same material plus even a few tracks more. As for the incidents described above, I would not doubt they were true, I just wonder if they give the full picture of the entire stay of Mingus with Norvo. You know you can be rightfully sore at two or three insulting incidents. But if you work yourself into a temper about them (understandable too) and gloss briefly over the "rest" (the "better days"?), making things sound as if this was what the entire tenure with the trio was all about, then does this really tell the whole story or will the resulting overall picture be a bit skewed?

In case you're referring to my post above, what I did was give the other sidemen with leader records of their own (to the best of my knowledge) that also appeared on that "Rib Joint" Savoy twofer. Who says only hard bop leaders will provide a chance to carry on the game? Hence my post above. That said, of course is your Sammy Price record valid. As for the rest, you are right, but what can you do if several forumists post at the same moment and it DOES take more than one minute to write and send off a post if a lengthy list of musicians' names has to be typed? (I must have typed my Lil Armstrong leader post while you and King Ubu typed yours - how is anybody to know?) As for my Lucky Thompson statement, this was tongue in cheek towards King Ubu's puzzled question. Feel free to ignore it. Any of the Sammy Price listings then to move on - fair game? (I'll be out in this case as my first Sammy Price disc has already been named)

Of course it is fair. I just wonder if this was a recurrent situation or a relatively isolated incident in a less than pleasant overall situation where probably one thing led to another. Maybe Mingus, being as hot-tempered as he was, really would not have been the person to state, for example, that the situation overall was fairly OK and a career step ahead for him (again, would he otherwise have stayed for more than one year if he had been confronted with that kind of thoughtlessness or degrading treatment day in, day out?) but that the situation deteriorated during that Southern tour and made things unbearable for him? That would have put things in perspective. The sad truth is that unfortunately this was no isolated incident. Just remember the shabby and downright "couldn't care less" behavior of Benny Goodman in the face of how Wardell Gray was treated in certain places while in his band. Let's face it, when it came to being articulate and outspoken in everyday life and assuming responsibility for their own employees many band leaders were just utter dimwits.

The plight of having to look up and write down lineups, you know ... OK, will contionue with your Lucky Thompson selction, then: My first came from a slightly differnt session of the same period: "Paris 1956 with the Dave Pochonet All Stars" (first relased on the CfD label - Club Francais du Disque): also feat. Charles & Fernand Verstraete, Jo & Marcel Hrasko, Chiel de Villers, Martial Solal, Henri Renaud, Jean-Pierre Sasson, Benoit Quersin, Dave Pochonet.

No way! Please do not forget King Curtis, Mickey Baker, Haywood Henry, Al Casey and Panama Francis. For "our" purposes they do have just a much leader credentials, you know ... (isn't jazz a wide field that goes waaaay beyond hard bop? )

My first Lil Armstrong leader compilation: "Born To Swing 1936-37" (Harlequin HQ 2069) lineup including Joe Thomas, Shirley Clay (tp), Buster Bailey (cl), Chu Berry, Robert Carroll, Prince Robinson (ts), James Sherman, Teddy Cole (p), Arnold Adams, Huey Long (g), Wellman Braud, John Frazier (b), Manzie Johnson (dr).

My, my, you sure are keeping me busy writing down band line-ups: My first Roy Eldridge: "Roy Eldridge & His Orchestra - Little Jazz - Big Band" (Sounds of Swing LP-108) Big band recordings of 1943-46, main sidemen including Will Bradley, Cozy Cole, Joe Thomas (tp!), Tom Archia, Porter Kilbert, Cecil Payne, Rodney Richardson, Buster Harding, Sandy Williams, Vic Dickenson, Wilbur DeParis, Hal Singer, Franz Jackson, Billy Taylor (b), Ike Quebec, Rozelle Gayle, Hal Doc West. That enough leads?

FARLOW's, please! Now if all this really happened exactly that way (and wasn't blown up too much by Mingus' temper) it's too bad Red Norvo had to chicken out like that in this situation. Mingus is right - others would have walked out. OTOH, the way Mingus sneers at Reed Norvo and Tal Farlow when talking about the situation BEFORE that incident reeks of a situation where he seemed to have worked himself into a lasting temper AFTER the fact (long after). Things cannot possibly have been that bad for his entire stay or else he would not have stayed for more than a year. So no need for this kind of put-down (unless you spend most of your life in a fighting mood). But let's not forget - the way the U.S. society still was downright rotten race-wise in 1951 all three (or four) involved in this in the end were victims of some far larger injustice, and except for a handful of really intrepid characters I'd guess many musicians probably were just intimidated by the circumstances and tried to keep a low profile. Not that this should excuse anything, but the evil was rooted far deeper in society at large, not in the way this or that musician behaved in this or that situation. Anyway, now we know it wasn't Red Mitchell who subbbed for Mingus on that show (he actually was my first guess as he replaced Charlie Mingus in that trio). Would sure like to know who it was who did that faking for that show. Might make another jazz biography just that little bit more interesting.

Sorry, Don't think I've any Alvin Stoller leader dates, have aleady named my first "Brute" disc so it will have to be the Hawk: "Coleman Hawkins Big Band Live At the Savoy Ballroom, August 1940": (Musidisc Jazz Anthology, also on many otehr reissue labels) Tommy Stevenson, Joe Guy, Tommy Lindsay, Nelson Bryant (tp), William Cato, Sandy Williams, Claude Jones (tb), Eustis Moore, Jackie Fields, Ernie Powell (as), Kermitt Scott, The Hawk (ts), Gene Rodgers (p), Gene Fields (g), Billy Taylor (b), J.C. Heard (dr). King Ubu, if you want to you can take this somewhere else again by checking your HRS Mosaic box.

You sure that's according to the thread starter's rules?

Ok, while I typed Don went off the Woody track and just beat me by an inch, so here is my first Flip Phillips leader date: "A Melody From The Sky": Signature recordings from 1944/45 reissued on Doctor Jazz also fest. Neal Hefti, Bill Harris, Chubby Jackson, Ralph Burns, Billy Bauer, Shelly Manne

Didn't know that composers were also eligible (would have loved to list my RCA Vintage series LP from the 60s with Isham Jones' band ) So here goes MY first Woody Herman LP: Same as seen here: http://eil.com/shop/moreinfo.asp?catalogid=443519 In short, "The Band That Plays The Blues" (see track listing) so take your pick among the sidemen as fouind in any good discog. if you do not want to go further down the Woody Herman route.

My first Frank Foster leader date: "Two Franks Please - Frank Foster & Frank Wess" (Savoy) also feat. Ronnell Bright (Piano), Ed Jones (Bass), Donald Byrd (Trumpet), Henry Coker (Trombone), Gus Johnson (Drums)

Hmm. Art Farmer perhaps, but not this Art Farmer. You are right - so I am going back to my own post from Day 1 of this thread (as it had been disallowed by the thread starter because I andvertently had jumped back to Art after somebody else had already moved on ): My first Art Farmer record was "The Art Farmer Septet - Plays the Compositions and Arrangements of Gigi Gryce and Quincy Jones" (Prestige P-7031). Gigi Gryce anyone? Or the Quince?

Which means we are finally back at the point of departure. :lol:

Sssshhh ... don't spoil the legends!!

Now that you mention it, indeed all the sources dealing with this trio (liner notes, Jazz Masters of the 50s book etc.) that I am aware of just mention the perfect interaction of the trio but no personal impressions by Mingus. The "All Music Guide to Jazz, 2nd Ed." (1996), however, had this to say about the end of his stint with the trio: "He exited the ensemble a year later after an incident in which he was temporarily replaced by a white bassist for a New York television show. This ugliness was caused by a combination of union and racial politics." Now Mingus being the way he was, I wonder if he really would have separated this (undoubtedly galling and insulting) incident (which must have hurt him deeply) from his overall opinion of the musical achievements of the trio if he had been queried at length about his stay with Red Norvo. Maybe it's better to let the music just speak for itself ...

If you ain't checked out this ... http://www.amazon.fr/Si%C3%A8cle-jazz-musique-photographie-Basquiat/dp/2081224240/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278346218&sr=8-1 ... you ain't seen much yet. At any rate, this should answer most of your questions.