Big Beat Steve

The plight of having to look up and write down lineups, you know ... OK, will contionue with your Lucky Thompson selction, then: My first came from a slightly differnt session of the same period: "Paris 1956 with the Dave Pochonet All Stars" (first relased on the CfD label - Club Francais du Disque): also feat. Charles & Fernand Verstraete, Jo & Marcel Hrasko, Chiel de Villers, Martial Solal, Henri Renaud, Jean-Pierre Sasson, Benoit Quersin, Dave Pochonet.

No way! Please do not forget King Curtis, Mickey Baker, Haywood Henry, Al Casey and Panama Francis. For "our" purposes they do have just a much leader credentials, you know ... (isn't jazz a wide field that goes waaaay beyond hard bop? )

My first Lil Armstrong leader compilation: "Born To Swing 1936-37" (Harlequin HQ 2069) lineup including Joe Thomas, Shirley Clay (tp), Buster Bailey (cl), Chu Berry, Robert Carroll, Prince Robinson (ts), James Sherman, Teddy Cole (p), Arnold Adams, Huey Long (g), Wellman Braud, John Frazier (b), Manzie Johnson (dr).

My, my, you sure are keeping me busy writing down band line-ups: My first Roy Eldridge: "Roy Eldridge & His Orchestra - Little Jazz - Big Band" (Sounds of Swing LP-108) Big band recordings of 1943-46, main sidemen including Will Bradley, Cozy Cole, Joe Thomas (tp!), Tom Archia, Porter Kilbert, Cecil Payne, Rodney Richardson, Buster Harding, Sandy Williams, Vic Dickenson, Wilbur DeParis, Hal Singer, Franz Jackson, Billy Taylor (b), Ike Quebec, Rozelle Gayle, Hal Doc West. That enough leads?

FARLOW's, please! Now if all this really happened exactly that way (and wasn't blown up too much by Mingus' temper) it's too bad Red Norvo had to chicken out like that in this situation. Mingus is right - others would have walked out. OTOH, the way Mingus sneers at Reed Norvo and Tal Farlow when talking about the situation BEFORE that incident reeks of a situation where he seemed to have worked himself into a lasting temper AFTER the fact (long after). Things cannot possibly have been that bad for his entire stay or else he would not have stayed for more than a year. So no need for this kind of put-down (unless you spend most of your life in a fighting mood). But let's not forget - the way the U.S. society still was downright rotten race-wise in 1951 all three (or four) involved in this in the end were victims of some far larger injustice, and except for a handful of really intrepid characters I'd guess many musicians probably were just intimidated by the circumstances and tried to keep a low profile. Not that this should excuse anything, but the evil was rooted far deeper in society at large, not in the way this or that musician behaved in this or that situation. Anyway, now we know it wasn't Red Mitchell who subbbed for Mingus on that show (he actually was my first guess as he replaced Charlie Mingus in that trio). Would sure like to know who it was who did that faking for that show. Might make another jazz biography just that little bit more interesting.

Sorry, Don't think I've any Alvin Stoller leader dates, have aleady named my first "Brute" disc so it will have to be the Hawk: "Coleman Hawkins Big Band Live At the Savoy Ballroom, August 1940": (Musidisc Jazz Anthology, also on many otehr reissue labels) Tommy Stevenson, Joe Guy, Tommy Lindsay, Nelson Bryant (tp), William Cato, Sandy Williams, Claude Jones (tb), Eustis Moore, Jackie Fields, Ernie Powell (as), Kermitt Scott, The Hawk (ts), Gene Rodgers (p), Gene Fields (g), Billy Taylor (b), J.C. Heard (dr). King Ubu, if you want to you can take this somewhere else again by checking your HRS Mosaic box.

You sure that's according to the thread starter's rules?

Ok, while I typed Don went off the Woody track and just beat me by an inch, so here is my first Flip Phillips leader date: "A Melody From The Sky": Signature recordings from 1944/45 reissued on Doctor Jazz also fest. Neal Hefti, Bill Harris, Chubby Jackson, Ralph Burns, Billy Bauer, Shelly Manne

Didn't know that composers were also eligible (would have loved to list my RCA Vintage series LP from the 60s with Isham Jones' band ) So here goes MY first Woody Herman LP: Same as seen here: http://eil.com/shop/moreinfo.asp?catalogid=443519 In short, "The Band That Plays The Blues" (see track listing) so take your pick among the sidemen as fouind in any good discog. if you do not want to go further down the Woody Herman route.

My first Frank Foster leader date: "Two Franks Please - Frank Foster & Frank Wess" (Savoy) also feat. Ronnell Bright (Piano), Ed Jones (Bass), Donald Byrd (Trumpet), Henry Coker (Trombone), Gus Johnson (Drums)

Hmm. Art Farmer perhaps, but not this Art Farmer. You are right - so I am going back to my own post from Day 1 of this thread (as it had been disallowed by the thread starter because I andvertently had jumped back to Art after somebody else had already moved on ): My first Art Farmer record was "The Art Farmer Septet - Plays the Compositions and Arrangements of Gigi Gryce and Quincy Jones" (Prestige P-7031). Gigi Gryce anyone? Or the Quince?

Which means we are finally back at the point of departure. :lol:

Sssshhh ... don't spoil the legends!!

Now that you mention it, indeed all the sources dealing with this trio (liner notes, Jazz Masters of the 50s book etc.) that I am aware of just mention the perfect interaction of the trio but no personal impressions by Mingus. The "All Music Guide to Jazz, 2nd Ed." (1996), however, had this to say about the end of his stint with the trio: "He exited the ensemble a year later after an incident in which he was temporarily replaced by a white bassist for a New York television show. This ugliness was caused by a combination of union and racial politics." Now Mingus being the way he was, I wonder if he really would have separated this (undoubtedly galling and insulting) incident (which must have hurt him deeply) from his overall opinion of the musical achievements of the trio if he had been queried at length about his stay with Red Norvo. Maybe it's better to let the music just speak for itself ...

If you ain't checked out this ... http://www.amazon.fr/Si%C3%A8cle-jazz-musique-photographie-Basquiat/dp/2081224240/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278346218&sr=8-1 ... you ain't seen much yet. At any rate, this should answer most of your questions.

First Plas Johnson: "Rockin' With The Plas" (Pathe Marconi) 1957-58 Capitol sessions feat. Ernie Freeman, Ray Johnson (p), Red Callender (b), Irving Ashby, Rene Hall, Bill Pittman (g)l, Earl Palmer, Raymond Martinez (dr)

Cannot continue with my first Serge Chaloff because it was "The Boston Blow-Up" too, so we'll have go some OTHER route: Here's my first Herb Pomeroy: "Band In Boston" (United Artists UAL 4015) also feat. Lennie Johnson, Augie Ferretti, Nick Capzuto, Bill Berry (tp), Gene DiStasio, Joe Ciavardone, Bill Legan (tb), Dave Chapman, Charlie Mariano, Varty Haroutunian, Joe Caruso, Jimmy Mosher (sax), Ray Santisi (p), John Neves (b), Jimmy Zitano (dr).

So you are jumping back in the sequence of leaders named? O.K., here is my first BILLY BYERS leader date ever bought: "Jazz On The Left Bank" (Epic LN 3387) also feat. Dick Mills (tp), William Boucaya (bs), ts), Martial Solal (p), Wessel Ilcken (dr), Benoit Quersin (b). Now how about going from there? Anyobdy willing to take this ANYWHERE else except Martial Solal? (The opportunities would be there )

My first Al Cohn album was a three-pocket 45 RPM EP set - The Natural Thing to Do. I'm going by memory, but I think the personnel is Cohn, Joe Newman, Frank Rehak, Nat Pierce, Freddie Green, Osie Johnson, and (had to look this up) Milt Hinton. Have already listed my first Al Cohn Lp earlier so got to go another way: My first Nat Pierece leader compilation: "The Boston Bust-Out" (Hep LP 13) feat. Nat Pierce Orchestras of 1949 and 1950/51, Serge Chaloff-Ralph Burns Septet of 1949, Charlie mariano Sextet of 1949 and Ray Borden Big Band of 1947/48. Lots of other sidemen on the LP but except for Sonny Truitt all the potential band leaders are in the above named featured bands.

@Adam: This I doubt. Period photo archives cannot have gone totally out the window in the 70s (only a good 20 years after the period when they would have been current) only to resurface BIG TIME in the 80s/90s with more material than ever being available (and judging by what has appeared in print availability has never stopped since). I put it more down to: 1) An awkward attempt at modernizing and updating the album through its cover artwork (though I'd guess it failed big time according to most tastes) 2) Further to 1), maybe a lack of trust in that the fans of those older styles would buy enough copies of the album (if it had totaly retro cover artwork) so they figured they'd try to get buyers with more contemporary tastes (who'd jump on more modern cover artwork, especially in the wild 70s) on boat as well? Maybe they figured some Bitches Brew buyers would buy Miles' old Blue note 10-inchers as well if they repackaged them 70s style? 3) A policy of using EASILY available in-house or contracted photographers' material instead of digging around a bit (only a bit!) in archives of older, more fitting material or maybe actually a lame attempt at throwing this or that contemporary photographer a bone (maybe because the compilers thought they owed him a favor or some behind the scenes "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" policy at work? I've seen it happen in other printed media sectors when it came to selecting illustrations why not there as well? 4) Sheer carelessness and lack of taste Just speculation after all, but I really cannot see lack of availability would explain it all.

:tup :tup :tup :tup ... although those Prestige twofers are far from the worst. There have been LOTS of really, really BAD ones in the blues and R&B field. Talk about some late 40s, early 50s biting, ass-kicking' smoking small-group R&B, and on the cover you get a pic of some elderly character attired in the worst, bell-bottom trousered, striped, garishly cut mid-70s out-and-out disco garb and outlandish Afro haircut that would have made Shaft look subdued and restrained, might perhaps have fitted some pimp on the wrong side of the track but looked just oddly out of place on somebody approaching retirement age (and looking the part). Sometimes all this almost resembled some widespread "Let's shove some photographer credits over to Norbert Hess" (who must have taken a zillion stage photos of those elderly gentlemen at the sunset of their careers) trust effort. And then there were those reissue covers with nondescript, awkwardly modernized "art"work that bore no relationship to the (earlier) music whatsoever. Correction: The photographer's name I gave in my first version of my post above was wrong. confusion on my part. Hereby corrected.

It may not actually be the Marsalises' main problem (though some of that Jason wrote points in that direction) but it is or may be the problem in some circles, including in the case of a lot of what had been labelled and marketeed as jazz over here since the late 70s or 80s and especially when everybody (or at least a lot) started jumping on that " world music bandwagon" (and I am not talking about Tony Scott or Albert Mangelsdorff here). The bottom line just is that why should music that does not fit any other stylistic description automatically be "jazz", of all musical genres? Small wonder that a lot of the audience did not follow and even diehard jazz fans (no matter what there "core" jazz preferences are) felt that things went too far. And this simply because the discernible references to decades of where this particular style of music (in all its variations and evolutions) came from not only weren't there but were rejected and ignored by the musicians in every respect possible. If, say, Stockhausen or Kagel had insisted on their music being labelled "opera" or "classical chamber music" (of the day), do you think that all - or even most - lovers of that kind of classical music would have exclaimed "Oh so this is what this music is all about now and this is where we are heading in this music now" and would have accepted these claims at face value?

Good points. and no less valid even if a Marsalis said the same (if he's got a "political" agenda behind what he says the that's an entirely different matter but it doesn't invalidate his statements taken by themselves). I don't know what's behind the 1990 cutoff date (to European jazz ears - with all the European brand of "Free" and/or "World Music" mixup that has been going on since the 70s - the date might be a bit earlier) but at any rate I don't buy into this "If it doesn't fit any other category, call it jazz, and if it doesn't swing one bit then so what" pseudo explanation/justification either.

Me neither. Can't say it has done that much for me beyond the fact that it's easy to recognize. There are lots of labels (mostly other indies) that have a much more lively impact on me and tell me (based on my own tastes and not on "what everybody says") that "if it's on that label you can't go wrong", for example.

Depends on what your preferences were. Nobody claims they were the cream of the crop by any yardstick. But I guess you in the U.S. lived through the Beat era in quite a different way from the way it was experienced over here anyway (both in the UK and on the continent). So you can hardly gauge the impact many of those groups made on stage and in the musical sourroundings they came up in and presented themselves. BTW, do you actually think all those Garage Punk bands that were there in the US during the Beatles era sounded "all that good" or were that great as far as musical and instrumental proficiency were concerned? On strictly musical terms, many of those 3-chord bands were just nowhere. But isn't a lot in the musical immediacy, energy and overall sound but not necessarily in individual accomplishment? Which is where the risk of misjudging things with the "benefit of hindsight" comes in again. A lot of music that mirrored an era really needs to be seen, heard and appreciated from the vantage point of that era wherever possible.