Big Beat Steve

True, but how many of those with just a passing, fleeting interest in jazz who'd just enjoy listening to some jazz here and there would have bought the previous, much more comprehensive issues of the Penguin Guide? Of course the new direction that this guide now seems to be taking would be much more suited to those non-collectors (or to budding collectors).

Strange that. One of the common criticisms of Penguin used to be the way it limited itself to albums that were currently in print or easily available in the UK. Srange indeed. I'd even go so far as to say that ANY record buying guide that limits itself strictly to what is EASILY and off the (internet or real) shelf available everywhere at the time of going to press while items that by ANY yardstick are part of the "major opus" of an artist are omitted just because they happen to be OOP is SERIOUSLY flawed and rather worthless IMHO. Why? Firstly, this way of doing things is bound to be obsolete in more than one detail by the time the printed book hits the bookstalls because items are being deleted all the time. Secondly, because you cannot build a real appreciation of any artist's music on what is MOMENTARILY available (if what is momentarily available is full of gaps) and I do assume that ANY seasoned collector will not be deterred THAT easily by keywords such as "Deleted" or "OOP" - least of all in this digital and internet age. I'd understand all those moans and groans about this or that being OOP if it was an item that has NEVER been reissued for the past 40 or 50 or more years but if it's been around in any guise in the past 20 to 25 years then all this only ought to spur any collector into action. Sure that means work and sometimes long-winded searching but isn't this what motivates the collector no end?

I agree with you about that John Fordham book. Bought it in the mid-90s in London and haven't regretted it, especially since its price was surpruisingly low. In the same (coffee-table and good period photo/record cover ilustration coverage) vein and roughly at the same time I also bought "A Century of Jazz" by Roy Carr and "The World of Jazz" by Jim Godbolt as IMHO they also offered a huge lot (on the periods of jazz I am most interested in) for their price tag - and still do. I must have seen the Stan Britt/Brian Case book (as well as the Virgin Encyclopedia of Jazz) at around the same time too and really cannot recall why I did not pick those up. As I already owned the Keepnews/Grauer Pictorial History of Jazz, Leonard Feather's Encyclopedia of Jazz, "Black Beauty White Heat" and a host of others (including jazz encyclopedias with biographical info), including several editions of J.E. Berendt's Jazz Book, maybe they did not seem to offer enough ESSENTIAL information on the c. pre-1965 period of jazz I was most interested in to warrant the (relatively higher) purchase price. Maybe I was wrong, but I guess in the present internet days that could be remedied even for OOP items if I'd wanted to. BTW, does anybody know if those "Third Ear" Listening Companions (jazz record guides) published by Miller Freeman Books in the 90s ever progressed beyond the "Swing" and "Bebop" tomes into more modern jazz styles except for the "Afro-Cuban Jazz" volume? A "forthcoming" West Coast jazz book was mentioned here and there but otherwise no trace of it.

It would be interesting to know who that exactly was. If the documentary was done that long ago almost all of the eleven German players from the 54 finals would still have been alive. But usually it was only 2 or 3 of the "usual suspects" who got interviewed in the media (until the number of survivors diminished dramatically). At any rate that might help to put things into perspective since strangely enough, to the best of my knowledge no mention was made of this in those NUMEROUS media reports, writeups, publications etc. when all that hullaballoo about the 50th anniversary of the '54 finals came around in 2004. With the sports media being what they are I think it's unlikely they would have managed to hide THAT from media coverage at that time.

Ha, I wonder what eventually will become of all this. That story of alleged doping of the German '54 team is about as old as Old Man Moe's beard and has been refuted (or proved wrong) before. One aspect of this being that a sports such as football with extremely alternating demands on the individual players does not really suit itself to "classic" doping substances - as opposed to endurance sports like in athletics, cycling etc. where you are out to go straight ahead as fast and/or as long-lasting as you can. But who knows ... what with the large-scale doping having gone on in Eastern Bloc sports since Heaven knows when, it might eventually boil down to a case of "My dope is better than your dope"? (BTW, no sour grapes please, Brownie, just beause Pibarot's men and Kopa's buddies fared so dismally in the '54 tournament? ;))

Same here. People like her need to be interviewed at length so their recollections, background knowledge, etc. can be recorded for posterity. After all, what's that (African) saying again? "An elder who dies is like a library that burns down."

None of the barriers of era, pastness, racism, lack of technological means of reproduction, etc. that apply in the cases of the "old legendary actors who barnstormed before the days of film, the great Negro League baseball players, the great old minstrel-age entertainers whose work has essentially been lost" seem to me to apply to Schildkraut, other than that what he does survive to some degree on third-party testimony. As for him being a victim of external and/or internalized Crow Jim attitudes -- Konitz? Art Pepper? No need to go back to the minstrel era etc. Just take any number of JAZZ "musicians' musicians" from the 20s or generally those 20s jazz musicians who (according to testimonials by those who heard them play) were never adequately captured on record (because the recordings were influenced to a MUCH higher degree by conservative record company/A&R men tastes) and who really came into their own live on stage (none of which was preserved for posterity). There must have been MANY like that ...

Hello to all jazz bibliophiles Here comes a plea to those who own the above book. I am currently working my way through this (IMHO) highly informative and fascinating book but due to its sheer volume this does take its time. So it is only now that I discover that my copy (bought secondhand via the web quite a while ago) has a printing/binding error which means that pages 459 to 490 are missing (a number of pages up to page 458 are duplicated instead). Is there any owner of this book out there who'd be able and willing to provide me with scans of those pages 459 to 490 (or with photocopies, which might be a feasible and affordable option if a European forum member happens to own this book)? Any help would be appreciated and expenses will be reimbursed, of course.

Just a gimmick for the photographer, I think. Actually I wonder if that trombonist is Tadd Dameron at all. The pic isn't very clear but somehow his face looks a bit lean compared to other known pictures of Tadd from that period.

No, but I'd sure like to hear other opinions too as this is a book that would figure high on my shopping list.

The liner notes of the Jazztone LP (reprinted on the FS reissue) say indeed the recording was made in Webster Hall.

Two, in fact: "Claude Williamson" (BLP-59) and "Round Midnight" (BLP-69).

The first 8 sides (complete with alternates) from the above Classics CD can be found on this LP (TAX m-8015, Sweden):

Please don't get totally carried away, everybody ... That's not worth it ...

Indeed, and that's EXCEEDINGLY common.

Thank goodness neither Leonard Feather nor John Hammond have ever had a chance of becoming members of this forum, then. Now THAT would have raised sumpin'!

You don't. I have 28. And I also own some 45 LPs covering mostly the 1950-1958 period as well a 2-CD set with his 50s Capitol TRANSCRPITIONS. So I guess I qualify as a sort of fan. In fact at a local clearout sale yesterday i bought his "Some Women I've Known" LP from his own Creative World label and found it rather refreshing to listen to (though I am not the biggest fan of female 50s jazz vocalists in the world). count me in among those who find more in his music from that period tha tother who constantly denigrate him - though, OTOH, after having bought and listened to his somewhat legendary "The Kenton Era" 4-LP set I can understand (to a degree) those who take him to task for his "bombastic excesses" and there are moments when I can understand Shelly Manne who found the job in his band like "chopping wood" too. But there is plenty of Kentonia to discover to offset all that. And as for what Stereojack said about his "later" stuff (after the 40s and 50s) getting less interesting, one record I found quite fascinating is his "The Uncollected" Hindsight LP featuring transcriptions of his 1962 "Mellophonium" orchestra. Quite interesting, not bombastic at all to my ears, and really ear-catching. I am not familiar with his commercially released output with that band but what I heard there is really an intirguing starting point IMHO.

I hear you! :rofl: Though you know quite well the point was a different one. (Different people being accused of shortcomings at different times - and some of them in comparable ways - but definitely NOT ALL of these people being lumped together at the SAME time )

Thanks Jeff, but would you mind if I myself would opt for some SCOTCH instead? (Yes, that might be another case of disagreement Going to play me some Dodo Marmarosa now for some interesting harmonics.

Well, I guess we'd both agree on a lot of what we listen to on 78s, isn't it? (At least I'd agree with most of your comments on the 78s you reported on here ) And where we don't (on 78s or otherwise), wouldn't it be dreary if everybody had the same tastes? The bottom line IMHO is that anyway you look at it, a lot of what one would consider of merit really is in the "ear of the behearer". Because like MMilovan said, if you'd dissect the music really closely no doubt there would be tons and tons of aimless rambling "that goes nowhere" to be found in many of those "blowing sessions" dear to the heart of many hard boppers too.

Oh, well, the same can easily be said during listening to some very famous, well-known, "serious" jazz legends. And contemporary musicians too. Oh but you forget, MMilovan: George Shearing may (and will) probably be faulted for NOT making full use of what he is capable of. WHEREAS - those others who you probably think of (and me too ) played jazz in a style that might best be described as "anything goes". But if you feel that what they play just goes nowhere then either you just don't understand - or this rising and falling, going around in circles is an aim in itself because it is OH so intensely delivered ... ;) And then again there are those who actually were poor, tormented, pained souls who just could not cope with what they would have to cope in order to do things properly and not get hung up in what they did. So losing your way, rambling aimlessly on and fumbling in search of what you actually would have wanted to say is all fine by these standards, regardless of the fact that it ought to have remained mercifully unrecorded. Note: No, I am not primarily thinking about certain pianists that would come to mind but a case in point is ERNIE HENRY. Period reviews found his tone poor and uncultured, his playing childish, incapable of expressing his ideas, playing out of tune, straining at getting to grips with his instrument and at trying to say what he would have had to say, etc. And then all of a sudden in more recent reviews and writeups he is lauded for his oh so passionate and deeply felt playing. Now which is which, really? (My personal opinion based on what I've heard is probably somewhere between these two extremes) And to top it off, Bob Rusch states in one review his glaring errors and being out of focus would have been perfect if his name had been Ornette Coleman but not in his case since he just was not Ornette. Numb fumbling on purpose as something to strive for? Or doesn't it really only boil down to a case of what one would WANT TO HEAR in a given artist, regardless of what that artist actually was/is or aimed for? A bit like the way Brubeck is criticised.

Good question ... Some will probably and automatically reply by stating that "easy going" is synonymous with "not enough depth". Though I'd venture to say not all of those who proclaim to be able to absorb those "deep" and "complex" forms of jazz REALLY DO understand it inside out. They didn't then and they don't now. Nodding one's head in sophistication is one thing but REALLY absorbing it with every fiber despite everything that might just strike you as "far out" is quite another. In fact, IMHO it is more a matter of so many jazz lovers being conditioned exclusively on the jazz of that era performed by those "ANGRY YOUNG MEN" and if being angry (and the music that comes from it) is the key word then "easy going" or even "happiness" is just anathema to it all. Especially as it might very well challenge the very concept of this "angry" sort of jazz if you have to admit that at the same time there were other valid forms of jazz too if you are prepared to listen to it on its OWN merits. That said, I agree with all the good that has been said about his MGM recordings. His Capitol recordings are a mixed bag indeed and you would have to pick the jazzier items carefully. The other day I played his "Shearing On Stage!" album and found it fair enough. Though his pretty feeble jokes he includes in his "emceeing job" as the bandleader do wear thin quite rapidly and sort of mar the overall effect of the music as such. But did Shearing claim all of his Capitol stuff was hard core jazz any more than the latter-day Wes Montgomery or George Benson did with THEIR works? OTOH maybe us "Yurpeans" aren't the most "objective" persons to judge Shearing anyway. Considering the substantial influence of the "Shearing sound" on a lot of what was happening in jazz in EUROPE in the 50s (in Germany and Sweden, for example) I think we do tend to approach his music from a slightly different angle and maybe give him more leeway than others would.

Frank Teschemacher. Bix Beiderbecke. (No, just like in the case of the abovementioned Fats Navarro jazz doesn't come in album doses only - far from it, so if you wish, take this to mean "three albums' worth of material" ) Oh yeah - and lest I forget: Chu Berry Charlie Christian

Luckily they aren't Spanish, or else this series would be called "All my exits"!

Agree. Dont know if this happens in your neck of the woods but one thing that really bugs me is these dimwits who drive about - like you said, really oblivious to what's going around them - while holding their phone to their RIGHT ear with their LEFT hand, so wrapping their arm all around themselves and trying to do the steering AND shifting with that remaining right hand (remember most cars here still are stick shift ), now that's indeed something that I feel really uneasy about all the time. And I try to keep my distance from these characters in traffic. If they really are too one-sided or too dumb (or deaf?) to keep their hands on the side where they belong when seated behind the wheel then I cannot fathom they will be able to react like the should if they have to. Time to curb that nasty habit ...