Big Beat Steve

May I ask for some guidance on the following matter related to vinyl collections? A friend of mine recently told me about a colleague of hers whose husband has died and who now would like to dispose of his "jazz collection". Not a big one (some 200 LPs or so) and I have no idea yet about the actual contents nor the jazz styles covered or the period during which the records were accumulated. The only name my friend was able to quote was "Miles Davis" (no idea if Birth Of The Cool, KOB, Electric Miles or whatever, though). Now the BIG snag is: It has also transpired that the owner wanted to save on storage space and has stored the records in some kind of crates or boxes. As a result, ALL THE COVERS HAVE VANISHED!! Unbelievable, galling, especially with this kind of collection. We've all seen it with pop and MOR 45s from the 50s and early 60s stacked in record racks now on sale at jumble sales, but THIS??? My question therefore is: Assuming that this gent bought these records when they were fairly current, are there ANY jazz LPs/labels/styles/artists from the, day, late 50s to the 80s, that would be worth more than, say, a buck or two at all, if they were clean and early pressings but, alas, minus their covers? I have no intention of speculating with this kind of stuff at all but of course would like to avoid overpaying if I really took the plunge and went for a substantial number of these. Offhand I'd say in this situation the entire stock isn't worth more than a token amount but I may be wrong. Of course any sort of reissue or very much later pressing would disqualify at once but what kind of records would you advise looking out for anyway? If I can bring myself to taking a look at such a heartbreaking mess, that is ... How can ANYBODY be so dumb, especially in RECENT decades of record buying?

If you've "been there, seen that", Bill, then I'd almost guarantee you'd not even regret shelling out for the book to have it as a permanent keepsake of those times on your bookshelf.

Received my copy of this masterwork yesterday, and while I do feel sort of flattered by the fact that my copy seems to have been the first one shipped to Germany (according to what the publishers said), this is not the main reason for these lines but rather the fact that this book deserves every plug that it can get! Whatever in-print and online reviews of this book say - they do not exaggerate one bit. Don't be misled by the title - the regional aspects really will probably be secondary to most readers (except those chosen few who "have been there") and to "non-locals" (read: "non-initiated") this certainly does not detract from the contents at all but will rather deepen the info provided as they provide an example of flourishing local or regional jazz scenes that unfortunately often remained unrecorded and therefore undocumented. The narrative is fascinating (even if you are not familiar with the local scene at all), the photos and memorabilia fascimiles are varied and excellently produced (and while I have doubts about the accuracy of 1 or 2 captions this does not detract in any way) and most will be new to any reader, and the information on the entire British jazz scene of this era (and even of jazz at large, because the pictorial and text coverage of the local concert and jam session appearances of numerous U.S. jazz stars will provide added info to their biographies) is priceless. So even to non-locals, this is a "Must Have" a for anybody interested in this key period of British jazz. Put on some Esquire vinyls or Jasmine CD reissues of Brit modern jazz from those decades, browse through the countless "action shots" of British jazz notables and relive the music with an entirely new, added visual dimension! 100 out of 100 points in my book anytime ...

Speaking of the Capitols and their unavailability in Denmark, seems like the Kentons did reach Danish soil not long afterwards after all, as in the case of this recording of almost exactly 60 years ago: Amazing, too, that they still used the older pre-1948 spelling of their language (use of capitals in nouns, aa instead of å etc.) for the copyright "small print" at this later date... Makes the record look older than it is. The transition must have been slow.

Please bear with me for insisting about that point once more, but what makes you think that music that is no longer in print will "never be heard again"? - What makes you think the awareness of those interested in the music is limited to "in-print" items only? - Isn't there a substantial market of secondhand OOP or even LONG-OOP original releases and aren't these recordings available SOMEHOW (for those in the know anyway, and for the most part it is those in the know who care enough about the music who'd go to lengths in sourcing these OOP items, thereby making them "heard" again)? - Hasn't it always been so that part of ANYBODY's favorite music (jazz or not) has been OOP at one time and therefore had to be sourced by some other means? But is this a contradiction or an insurmountable problem? Hasn't the fact that part of the music one would like to hear has gone OOP ALWAYS been part of the music searching, buying and listening habits? In short, I still am not quite sure what your are getting at except trying to come up with a percentage figure of the music in print that might perhaps be used to see if the reissue market is healthier (or worse off) these days than it was at a randomly selected earlier point in time. So for the time being I'd tend to agree with .:.impossible's statement above.

Same question here. Somehow I am not really sure I understand what the thread starter is after. "Jazz lost" is probably a matter of perspective anyway. Just imagine the old-time blues recordings of the 20s where there were a good many recordings that purportedly exist but no surviving copies of the records seemed to have been found. And then ... THIS: http://www.amazon.com/Stuff-That-Dreams-Are-Made/dp/B000E6UK9Q/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1300713988&sr=8-2 (And similar reissues) I am not sure, of course, but to me it seems that virtually everything is bound to come to light again one of these days. And with today's media it then of course is all over the place (to those who are looking for it). So the key question seems to be: Are we talking about COMMERCIAL recordings or aren't we? Of course, if you count in transcriptions, acetates, Jerry Newman/Boris Rose type live recordings/airshot dubs (what's the name of that engineer again whose collection came to light recently??) or other private/semi-private recordings (and all these ARE recordings after all, though not commercially issued), then there may be a substantial amount that has indeed been lost forever. But to the (collecting) public at large it never really existed anyway so whatever comes to light is a sort of bonus (and may or may not be counted in) ....

Getting back to the BIRD movie, I am sort of surprised at the reactions (even recent ones) by many of those who commented. For goodness sake, this is HOLLYWOOD - what do you expect from ANY sort of bio, especially if it involves a musician celebrity? There's BOUND to be a good deal of stereotypes, headline-catching sensationalism and clichés being thrown in. Hard to imagine this is ever going to be radically different. Especially if it should be true that in this case personal vetos may have prevented certain persons from being portrayed in the plot. It's been a couple of years since I watched "Bird" (the video cassette still is around, someday again maybe ...) but I distinctly remember I was fairly satisfied with the overall results. Because IMHO with this kind of Hollywood fictionalizing you can only hope that fiction doesn't win out totally so you do have to make concessions from the outset IMO. The only recent musician bio movie where I remember the scores were distinctly higher still is "I Walk The Line". Though I admit that I haven't bothered to check up on the facts in the Tina Turner bio (am not that much of a fan so don't really care, but at any rate the actor who played Ike Turner fitted the bill even less - visually, above all - than Forrest Whittaker fitted the Bird persona ).

Could it be that this is a question of "not losing one's face"?? Interesting report and comment on this aspect (of evacuation politics and people leaving Japan now) on a German news site today (in German so no use providing a link here): The gist of it is that according to what's part of the way the Japanese see themselves the basic rule is: "As a Japanese, you stay put". Hard to imagine elsewhere what do we really know (and understand)?

What do you mean, what's the story on Michel Ruppli? I'd not really have associated him primarily with BN anyway as I came acoss others of his discographies much earlier (labels I was/am particularly interested in). He just seems to have been digging deeply into label discographies (well before the internet era), including sections with various LP/45/78 other release series to cross-reference things beyond mere session details. Others may have gone down the same route. Otherwise, I agree with what Chuck Nessa and Chris A said about discographies and the work involved (and I DID notice the ones Chuck Nessa mentioned and - more tellingly so - did NOT mention among those who did the PIONEERING groundwork before the lifters came along). I for one did not mind shelling out e.g. for a (secondhand) set of the Jepsen discographies, Leadbitter/Slaven's (original and then the updated 2-volume) Blues works as well as for specialist works in more recent times such as Harry Nicolausson's Swedish Jazz discography or Ginell/Coffey's Discography of Western Swing and Hot String Bands 1928-42. A lot of work went into these and they were worth the price of admission in my book. Though it can add up indeed ... Some may be available online, e.g. on hindsight I could have avoided buying the Nicolausson discography if I had become aware much earlier of the much-updated complete works accessible and donwloadable online on the Visarkiv website. And others are an ongoing group effort as other collectors contribute to and deepen the research findings, e.g. (to get back to the Michel Ruppli label discographies) in the case of the Chess discography, for example, a lot of which (covering early Chess 78s) was developed in much greater depth on the Red Saunders Foundation website. But IMO it is always up to the compilers to decide if they want to make this accessible to everyone and it should never, never be taken for granted. This is one area where the urge to want to (and feel entitled to) get everything free through the web ought to have its limits.

Yes! By all means!!

Quote from that article: "Still, the revelation that Braun was among the film’s fans is bizarre and unsettling, even if just a tiny footnote in the perversities of that time." Unsettling? Only to the unwary. It has been a persistent rumor for decades that Joseph Goebbels owned a substantial collection of jazz records. A rumor so persistent and cropping up in such different sources that there may well be more to it than just gossip.

Not the best analogy in the world, IMHO - sorry. What JSngry meant to say (if I got him correctly - and if I did, I agree with him) is that he'd rather see people travel around the country NOT without a map but without a "generalist" guide that tells them "what to see and where to go". Wouldn't it be much more interesting to discover your own niches and places to go that you find fascinating even if they are considered unworthy of a mention in such a guide? In short, get off the trodden paths of what "you are supposed to listen to in order to get the essentials of the music" and search out musicians or styles instead that appeal to your SUBJECTIVE tastes, even if this means that you end up having far more records by some artist who - by the "accepted wisdom of jazz history" - is an also-ran in his field and time but just happens to be hugely enjoyable to those who buy his records evben today - much more so than maybe a huge "name" artist who just does not cut it with some listeners. Nothing wrong with that - build your own tastes.

So I assume that all this babble about cut-outs or drill hole items being of INFERIOR vinyl PRESSING quality is just hocus pocus, right? It's just that these records happened to come along at the end of the marketing line when they were being phased out?

As for my math, I think we both know what I meant. 1937 makes it 73 to 74 years in the past now, 1941 will be 70 years ago as we go along though this year, so this is why I said "HOW MUCH out of the 1937-42 time span". My point being that, in this case, the 70-year cutoff date levels out any approach as to how you go about the royalty issue with ANY reissuer, so why be "holier than thou" even in cases like this? Good luck with your buying decisions (and listening pleasures)

Interesting you should mention this (my favorite Mosaic). It was listening to the duets that "sold" my fried on the Django Duets idea. Then interests grew to include duets with Louis Vola, Andre Ekyan, Bill Coleman (!), Eddie South... One possibility, "Two is Company", but it's a Definitive, so not a "first choice". But you do know how much out of the time span of 1937 to 1942 is even beyond the SEVENTY-year cutoff date that they seem to be so intent on in the U.S.? Or to put it another way, with recordings from THIS period, this "legit or not" debate really is beside the point.

Very commendable effort, this update. Hats off to you for your attention to detail! There are LOTS of authors out there who'd be well advised to follow the same route.

You're talking about this one?

Good to see some things never change totally and that there are at least SOME constants in life. Through all generations, and even if it is on a small scale.

To add to what John L said, personally I find all Dexter Gordon albums from the pre-Blue Note era recommendable. The Dials and Savoys are the first ones to pick up, of course, then indeed there are the jam session takes with Wardell Gray (finest stuff!), both the LONGISH 1947 tracks ("The Hunt" etc.) and then the 1952 tracks often reissued under the title "The Chase and The Steeplechase"). Don't know which packagings would be the very best deal on CD (I have all of them good ol' vinyl) but all of them are out there. And personally I also like his Dootone LP "Dexter Blows Hot and Cool" and his Bethlehem item "Daddy Plays The Horn" from the mid-50s. Fine throughout IMHO.

For quite some time there have been two here that I've regularly pulled out to close off the day (more often than many others in my collection). Pete Jolly's "Little Bird" LP on AVA and Al Haig's "Today" (Mint AL 711) Must have been on a "late night piano kick with a (semi-)Latin 60s feel".

Thanks for making us aware of this book! Checked out the linked sites and tend to agree with antonyh. This should appeal even to those interesedt in jazz of that period who were NOT there at the time. If the reviews are anything to go by, this should be a very nice documentary of British jazz from that era. I guess I wil place an order for a copy shortly (so the book can keep similar "local jazz scene" books about Detroit, Newark, Stockholm, Göteborg and Cologne company on my bookshelf ).

BowleggedWoman.com? Got it. :crazy: But lots of non-jazz (and non-R&B, non-C&W) items out there.

What kind of policy could THAT possibly be that sets out to prevent people from linking to other interesting sites that provide INFO to the collectors? You'd have to cut out 99% of all links posted here, then ... Again, what kind of weird rules would THAT be??

Indeed!!!! EVEN Bad Pres is worth having, you mean?

What you been smokin', Chewy, writing' like that??? You seem to be stuck in overdrive again ... Forheavenssake .... As for the Kimberly connection, check this (Google is your friend): http://www.bsnpubs.com/pri/kimberly.html Seems like they did all sorts of tributes to the big band era greats. Good occasion for musicians to make some extra dough as studio freelancers. Lots of West Coasters did that. No big surprise. And in the early to mid-60s they did some straightforward albums featuring West coast greats, as you can see. The Bud Shank album, for example, is from 1963 according to another source. If Gioia and Gordon did not dwell too much on this in their books then maybe this was because this time span (60s) was beyond the KEY period when WCJ was all the rage so they had to thin out their coverage of what happened AFTER that period??