Concord on the future of OJCs

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

that ain't the Star Bag i'm in!

edc

You got that Willis Jackson LP, Clem?

MG

[JSngry]

but, Tejas, it's more the industry trying to get SOME $$$ for the torrent kids-- they could give a flying fuck about the rest of "us." if jazz gets swept along to some small degree in some interior, no-window office it's just unlucky coincidence (going back to INANE goddamn congloms that led to this, in large part.)

Yeah. But jazz as part of The Industry is over for all but the marqueeiest of names, and even there it's pimpiusoutus maximus.

All I'm saying is that there are new habits being formed, and that there is new infrastructure being built. We don't need The Industry, we just need A Industry.

We'd best find a way to make it work, and wishing for more (and more expensive) product in a form that fewer people are going to be buying ain't the way.

Quandry or Opportunity?

[JohnBlutarski]

that ain't the Star Bag i'm in!

edc

You got that Willis Jackson LP, Clem?

MG

[Guy Berger]

Do you feel that CD reissues of LPs "count" less than the actual LPs? Or that Chronological Classics CDs "count" less than having the original 78s?

On the first point, I did up until recently. And on the second point, I never really grew up in a 78-centric time (although I had more than a few encounters with them as a little kid).

But most of the music we're talking about here isn't "new" in any way shape or form. The need for the "object" lessens as time goes by, which is why hardly anbody today insists on having, for example, the contents of the Ellington RCA box on 78s & LPs. I've got almost all of the 60s stuff on original LPs, and you know what - it's the same music as is on the CDs! Shocking, I know...

I think this pretty much nails it. I suspect the fetishization of CDs is a generational thing...

Guy

[ejp626]

Do you feel that CD reissues of LPs "count" less than the actual LPs? Or that Chronological Classics CDs "count" less than having the original 78s?

On the first point, I did up until recently. And on the second point, I never really grew up in a 78-centric time (although I had more than a few encounters with them as a little kid).

... But there's one thing you can't do with it - listen to it.

And afaic, that "counts" more than anything else. Big time.

Maybe it is just around the corner, but when I download mp3s I don't get liner notes or credits. That does piss me off and is probably the main reason I think mp3s are inferior (that and the fact you are pretty much screwed if your hard drive/ipod goes down). Maybe it is on the web but I don't want to have to be connected everytime I am trying to find out something about a particular recording. The music industry seems to be doing fuck-all to address this, and it does add to my residual resentment against an industry that treats all its customers as potential thieves.

[Quincy]

Do you feel that CD reissues of LPs "count" less than the actual LPs? Or that Chronological Classics CDs "count" less than having the original 78s?

While you're right that for some collectors it's all about the object, once again the reason why some feel downloads count less goes back to resale rights. It's nice to be able to trade in the old when the new & improved comes along (after checking here to see if the new really is improved.) Which is why the physical object with legal transfer rights matters in matters of art.

Also as hard drives become bigger & cheaper still, the capacity will reach the point where they can hold more music than we can ever hope to listen to in (many months 24/7, years, perhaps decades or lifetime.) The other thing we know about the music industry is that they always look for ways to sell it to you all over again. Selling mp3 downloads now, when they don't have to (Grateful Dead & King Crimson, among others offer both mp3 & FLAC) means they'll be sellin' the same digital ball of goods later on, only next time it'll be lossless. After lossless, how about a higher bit rate? Some of us know or think we can hear the high & low ends of music not there on the mp3s, so why not humor us and offer it to us at a slightly higher price (since it takes up a little more drive real estate)?

The only official downloads I have are live shows as FLACs. They are very real to me, but then again, it's the only form they've ever been offered in, at least legally.

Edited April 16, 2007 by Quincy

[mikeweil]

In fact, the labels which release SACDs usually have a single inventory policy, i.e. they issue the titles as hybrid SACDs only, with no CD version available.

Harmonia mundi France has issued some discs both as CDs and hybrid SACDs, but these are exceptions, afaik.

[John L]

I always really loved brousing through LP or CD stores. I enjoyed collecting them, but...

...I am all for technical progress. I just love being able to carry around a huge amount of music in my breast pocket. You can find more music on the internet now, including rare jazz and other music, than it was ever possible to find before. I no longer care about having an "object." I've gotten over it. I want the music, not the object.

[Stefan Wood]

Agreed.

[JSngry]

c'mon John, you know better than that. i've seen waaaaaaaaaaay more than my share of asscrack too so i'm all for some folks becoming recluses but you just indicted yr own line of thinking--

YOU can find more music on the internet.

fine, maybe YOU can but i bet if you came in my store (I'd tell you wipe that up!! i ain't yr swab jockey, man), you'd see puh-lenty of stuff-- & i'd play it for you-- that yah, you could find on the internet but not making the same connections.

just cuz most stores ain't that hot doesn't mean we should fucking shrug & settle for mere convenience.

Well, that knife cuts both ways (a good knife'll do that for ya'). I'd wager that more people have access to the internet and don't have immediate access to a hip local store than the other way around.

And I've yet to see a response to my "economy of distribution" scenario as it applies to self-produced musicians, fringe musics/labels, etc. I've been on the side of having "product" in the can and having to sit on it (not that I don't sit on the can a lot anyway...) because there's no $$$ immediately available for manufacturing & distribution.

Unquestionably, there's pros and cons alike to the download thing as it currently exists. But the current model doesn't have to become the permanent one. And to think that "general" consumer trends and preferences don't open up possibilities, real & exciting possibilities, for the rest of us is Cavemanisity at its "finest".

It wasn't all that many years ago that a lot of us were clamoring for BN & Verve to keep items in print in online form for perpetuity. Same thing for album covers and liner essays. "They should always be available!" we pleaded.

Now that that's becoming a real possibility, what are we hearing? "Give us CDs or give us death!"

C'mon people...

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

& yes, MG-- i found a copy of Star Bag a few weeks ago at a flea market Georgia; i traded two-- count 'em-- two banty roosters & ten big ones for that & Houston Person Chocomotive, yeehaw. (goddamn shame the cd version was cut; it's like skipping an act of King Lear, maaaan.)

Q1: how can THIS not be on cd??!!

Q2: how can Gator not be considered one of the GIANTS? fuck the progressive model of history, etc. i'm talking notes & tones, baby.

Q3: did you really not dig Trudy Pitts elsewhere?

UP UP & AWAY!!

edc

Yeah - I hated it when Fantasy did that - I'd much rather have paid for 2 complete CDs. And my copy of the LP is in shit state (but not the missing tracks, fortunately - now I've got the equipment, I may do my own CD).

A1: Crazy! Making my own twofer with "Gatorade" in a few days/weeks/whenever I can get round to it.

A2: Well, it is the progressive model of history; an elitist construction, if I ever saw one. I've a nice little pile of Gator LPs to make into twofers in the coming period.

A3: Pitts... If all you'd heard of her was "Star bag", well she's really groovin' on that one. I had (still have) "These blues of mine" and didn't really like it much. She swings on that nowhere near as much or as hard as on "Star bag" - mind you, Willis would make anyone swing, even Kenny G, I reckon. But I recently succumbed to the Jap Victor reissue of "Introducing the fabulous T Pitts" and I like that a lot more. And, having played "These blues" again since I got "Intro", I'm finding I like that a bit more. But "Star bag" is definitely her finest hour.

Q4: re A2: what do you think of Malaco?

MG

[randyhersom]

It wasn't all that many years ago that a lot of us were clamoring for BN & Verve to keep items in print in online form for perpetuity. Same thing for album covers and liner essays. "They should always be available!" we pleaded.

Oh, when the the Blue Notes go up? Got a link for J. R. Monterose?

And have the Quartet Outs gone up anywhere? I did email you about my CD wallet forever lost on an airplane? I'm definitely in the market for Mp3s, preferably 192 VBR or higher! I still have the empty cases.

[JSngry]

Quartet Out (emphasis on "quartet") = cyber (among other things) dysfunctionality in the extreme.

Don't get me started...

[Chuck Nessa]

Don't get me started...

Looking for the button. Can you help me?

[montg]

I see the downloading option as equivalent to a paperback--it's functional. But some classics merit a higher quality medium of presentation...hardbound, archival quality paper, and so forth. The OJCs, by and large, merit a bettter treatment than perpetual banishment to the ephemeral world of mp3s. There's nothing old fashioned in this sentiment.

I'm not wedded to the CD format--- If the mp3 route improved the quality of the presentation of the music, I'd be for it. It doesn't and so I mostly ignore it.

[RDK]

I'm not wedded to the CD format--- If the mp3 route improved the quality of the presentation of the music, I'd be for it. It doesn't and so I mostly ignore it.

Again, have you actually tried the mp3s from emusic? No, they aren't lossless, but they're pretty darn good and you probably can't hear the difference on most systems (or, at least, in your car while driving).

[montg]

I'm not wedded to the CD format--- If the mp3 route improved the quality of the presentation of the music, I'd be for it. It doesn't and so I mostly ignore it.

Again, have you actually tried the mp3s from emusic? No, they aren't lossless, but they're pretty darn good and you probably can't hear the difference on most systems (or, at least, in your car while driving).

No, I haven't downloaded from emusic. I have stuff in itunes, in the mp 3 format, it sometimes sounds different to me, though I admit I might not be able to tell the difference in a blindfold test. When I said 'presentation' I was referring to the whole product--audio quality but also the durability of the cd-r and the peripherals like liners and pictures. Maybe this is goofy, but just knowing that something has been lost in the downloading process is enough to irritate me even though, if pressed, I might not be able to detect the loss on most systems.