Dmitry

Blue Note's TONE POET series.

146 posts in this topic

That thread just goes on and on. I don’t have any of these records but there comes when a point where you’re letting these matters predominate over the music itself. 

This may be a stupid question but wouldn’t Rudy have had the same problems?

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1 hour ago, Brad said:

That thread just goes on and on. I don’t have any of these records but there comes when a point where you’re letting these matters predominate over the music itself. 

This may be a stupid question but wouldn’t Rudy have had the same problems?

That is the question. Ron McMaster, Wally Traugott, Larry Walsh, Malcolm Addey & Bernie Grundman too. Many people have pulled these tapes over the years. There have been many Blue Note reissues these past few decades and I can't remember too many with noticeable pitch problems. It may simply be that Kevin Gray is getting the most out of them and pulling out the bad with the good.

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so its like walking upwards up a downgoing escalator--- as time goes on we can get better tape transfers but also as time goes on the tape gets more degraded.  so what do you prefer, a compressed version of the mint tape, or a new transfer of the tape after decade of Bekins storage

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On 9/8/2019 at 6:14 PM, bresna said:

So Kevin Gray replied to a Hoffman forum member about the possibility of warbling during tape playback:

“Scotch (3M) 111 was the very first U.S. recording tape formulation produced in quantity in the U.S. It was released in 1948 and was about all there was in the U.S. until 1964. About 90 percent of the recordings I master from that period are recorded on 111. All the RVG Blue Notes from that period are on 111. It is a red/orange iron oxide basically glued to clear acetate. It bears no resemblance to modern tape.

“Acetate is very unstable over time. It becomes extremely brittle. You can pull on it slightly and it breaks. This tape never wound totally smooth on the reel, but that has also gotten much much worse over time.

“The biggest problem occurs when the tape was wound off at high speed, as opposed to being played though. This might occur when a tape was perhaps wound to the head to copy one song. Then the rest of the tape is wound off in “Fast Forward”. The result is that the tape cinches slightly and if left that way develops a permanent curl or ruffle. This is very common on 111. Once this has happened the tape does not wrap smoothly over the playback head and tends to wander slightly. This is clearly visible as the video shows. Another problem is that NONE of the recorders from the 50s and early 60s had constant tape tension, which all modern tape recorders have. The tension would be higher at the end of the reel than the beginning. This also took a toll on tape.

“The 2nd generation 3M tape was Scotch 201. Although the oxide changed (dark brown), the base was still acetate, and the same problems exist. Around 1965, 202 was released, which was on modern mylar/polyester. But RVG used both 111 and 201 for several more years.

“So the tape wandering over the heads as opposed to staying flat does introduce speed anomalies. How could it not? And it isn’t consistent from tape to tape. Some wind smoother than others. Fast winding, as mentioned before, things like temperature and humidity in storage, and age have taken a toll.

“There are other factors effecting speed, such as sticking splices. The adhesive in the splicing tape oozes with age. It can’t be cleaned off very effectively because of the brittleness of the tape.”

I haven't been following this too closely but I have a question for you guys....

Is this the same guy who went on this same thread on the Hoffman forum earlier and said he didn't hear the issue in question or that there was nothing there?

I know some engineers that would have a different opinion then this...

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8 hours ago, david weiss said:

I haven't been following this too closely but I have a question for you guys....

Is this the same guy who went on this same thread on the Hoffman forum earlier and said he didn't hear the issue in question or that there was nothing there?

I know some engineers that would have a different opinion then this...

No - Kevin Gray mastered and cut these LPs. Joe Harley is the reissue producer and he's the one who came into that thread and said it sounded fine to him and it matched what he heard on the master tape.

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15 hours ago, chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez said:

so its like walking upwards up a downgoing escalator--- as time goes on we can get better tape transfers but also as time goes on the tape gets more degraded.  so what do you prefer, a compressed version of the mint tape, or a new transfer of the tape after decade of Bekins storage

I thought digital was supposed to stop all that, you're old enough to remember that, right?

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On 9/10/2019 at 8:00 AM, bresna said:

No - Kevin Gray mastered and cut these LPs. Joe Harley is the reissue producer and he's the one who came into that thread and said it sounded fine to him and it matched what he heard on the master tape.

On 9/10/2019 at 8:00 AM, bresna said:

No - Kevin Gray mastered and cut these LPs. Joe Harley is the reissue producer and he's the one who came into that thread and said it sounded fine to him and it matched what he heard on the master tape.

Thanks...

I guess they should have coordinated answers or something though....

Kevin's explanation implies that these tapes weren't handled correctly at some point and from my experience, which is admittedly limited, this is certainly not the case....

Some well respected engineers I know actually like the vintage Scotch tape mentioned above as well....

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Much entertaining banter on the Hoffman site discussing the Donald Byrd ‘Chant’ release, the latest one with reputedly wobbly Hancock sonics. Listening to the cips though, I have to say that this one sounds really excellent in the top end and bass compared with the original LT release.

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I think it's hilarious that there are so many over on the Hoffman forums praising this series while at the same time talking about being on their 3rd copy of one title and their second copy of another two titles and then they'll be upset when Blue Note discontinues it. As it is, given the number of "on my 2nd copy" and "on my 3rd copy" comments I've read, I can't imagine them even continuing it with the titles they've already announced. :)

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Based on what's going over there -- although I don't keep up on all the posts -- I can't see purchasing any of these. Too many problems it seems. 

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2 hours ago, Brad said:

Based on what's going over there -- although I don't keep up on all the posts -- I can't see purchasing any of these. Too many problems it seems. 

I don't know if it's too many problems or overly picky buyers. I have been buying vinyl for a very long time. There are problems inherent with the medium that should be expected. You learn to live with these problems because quite honestly, they were in most pressings.

A lot of the buyers over there see a slight defect and return it, regardless of whether or not it affects the sound. Pressing vinyl is an inexact science. Off-center pressings happen. Warps happen. Underfill happens. Double labels happen. Yes, the pressing plant QC should catch these, but they probably only catch gross defects.

I have bought maybe 10 of these Tone Poet/80th Anniversary LPs and only one had a problem and that was a double label.

If you're a Kenny Burrell fan, you should try that Tone Poet LP. It sounds pretty damn good.

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Noted re: the Burrell. That will probably my first foray into this series. Might also pick up one of the others to compare with an original.

It is surprising on the Hoffmann Board how many people seem to be hearing these sessions for the first time on any medium. A bit of a leap in the dark if you don’t know the music at $35 or more a throw. I guess some people are rich though..:rolleyes:

Edited by sidewinder

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I am not an "audiophile" (according to my own definition of the word; a person with extreme expectations/requirements on sound reproduction) and I have a couple of Blue Notes on vinyl (Liberty and UA repressings, Kings, Toshibas and the odd Plastylite original). I own very few "audiophile" type reissues and I have never returned an LP. Even so, I was disappointed with the Tone Poet reissue. The mastering was fine, but the vinyl was not flat (looked like a 70s pressing from a bad batch) and the piano sound had a warble unrelated to the non-flat surface. 

Given the number of reports of the problems with the piano on other titles - and which is not present on other recent remasterings of the same material - I refuse to buy the explanation that it's about tape wear. I used to play around with tapes and tape machines in the 90s, and this - to me - sounds like a tape machine problem. I don't know the terminology, but I associate it with capstan or motor problems. 

Edited by Daniel A

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IVE SOLVED THE TAPE PROBLEMS ON HORACE SILVER "SONG FOR MY FATHER".............

 

I have just learned, that in Xalapa, MX on Radiomas- the dj talks over song for my father, until the joe henderson solo, thereby completly obscuring the tape speed problem :lol:

 

 

 

 

ohhhhhhhhhhhh now he busted out the Doodlin'---  Hank goin' strong in Mexico

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I picked up the Tone Poet LP of Grant Green's "Born To Be Blue" and maybe it's just me knowing that Lion didn't release it when it was recorded, but to my ears, I'm not digging this date a lot. Green's playing is just eh and Ike Quebec doesn't sound that good at all. I guess this Tone Poet LP sounds good from an audio perspective, but I have stopped grading audio these days.

Once again, side 1 has a huge amount of dead wax, making me wonder if Kevin Gray is ever going to get the hang of cutting in all analog without a preview head. It seems like he might be one to benefit from a digital preview circuit. :)

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Anyone who knows if the June releases are postponed or something? I would think that around this time they must be available for per order. Or am I just a bit impatient?

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I'm impatient for the Jackie McLean. Some listings but no preorder option found yet.  I know Honest Jon's will get it so I just need to wait :rolleyes:

Or listen to the CD....

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I have the ‘It’s Time’ on an original NY mono issue, a King and on the Mosaic LP set so no way am I going to slap down the dosh for another copy of that one. :rolleyes:

Having said that, I have just ordered the Lonnie Smith, Burrell and Baby Face Willette in this series to fill specific gaps and to check the series out. That will likely be it for me.

Edited by sidewinder

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The Burrell is lovely.

When you want to offload one of those 'It's Time'...

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1 minute ago, mjazzg said:

The Burrell is lovely.

When you want to offload one of those 'It's Time'...

All are good - the original issue sounds superb but the King LP is very commendable too. 

I have the ‘Introducing Kenny Burrell’ on CD but not on LP - there se3m to have been very good reports on that one.

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Up till now I wasn’t really interested in the releases of these series but McLeans’s It’s Time and Hutcherson’s The Kicker got my attention. And they are both scheduled for release this month...

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