ghost of miles

Sonny Rollins "Rollins In Holland: 1967 Studio And Live Recordings"

187 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, david weiss said:

I don't agree.

It is definitely flat but not by this much. On my software, if 1 is a full semitone, I had the raise the pitch about .3 to bring it into tune. 

Still unfortunate but probably not detectable to anyone who is not playing along with an instrument....

Yes, very wet but it's on the original recording. Can't undo wet.

i did not use software but noticed that sonnymoon was almost in A. but i just did run some software after reading your post. according to my software sonny's "Bb" is at 223,5 hz, a regular Bb should be 233hz. A is 220 as you know, so it is almost a semi-tone

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5 hours ago, bertrand said:

Man, it sounds like this one is very sub-par from a sonic point of view. I am sure the performances are amazing, but I may pass on this one.

I’m actually pretty disappointed with the sound quality, after all the hype I was expecting better. I haven’t dug into the book though which appears to be fairly in-depth. Can’t say I’m upset with my purchase, it’s still new to me Sonny, but had I shelled out for the vinyl like I almost did, it would be a different story. 

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On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2020 at 1:53 AM, hgweber said:

i did not use software but noticed that sonnymoon was almost in A. but i just did run some software after reading your post. according to my software sonny's "Bb" is at 223,5 hz, a regular Bb should be 233hz. A is 220 as you know, so it is almost a semi-tone

i just now did my quick CheapCasioKeyboardCheck on Sonnymoon, and Bb was obviously not right, but A pretty much was...not saying you couldn't play the tune in A, especially sonny, but...I don't think so. Also when the bass hits that low E string before landing on the IV chord...that shows the tune's being played in Bb.

I got no complaints, though. IMO, this is some of Sonny's best 1960s playing on record (such as it is), and very "significant" in terms of chronology. I think it's a treasure.

The rhythm section, btw, is a total groove., Han Bennick in particular. This is one guy who was not afraid to throw it all back at Sonny!

 

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On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2020 at 7:11 PM, John L said:

But Anhem is the crown jewel here, in my opinion.  It is all of side 2 and one track on side 1.   I can't get enough of it!

Yeah, that's some deep, DEEP stuff, listening now, seeing if time has changed my impression. It hasn't. Free-association sonny at his free-est, and Han Bennick, like i said, throwing it ALL back at him, the back and forth between those two is most delightful!

And SO much tenor! All the Clonetranes who know every permutation of every scale...they don't get to THIS side of the tenor (usually). For that, you go to guys like Threadgill (when he played tenor), THAT kind of playing. Tone, timbre, fingerings, SOUND.

Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins!

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When I get it, I'll be curious if I notice the speed issues.  Not being a musician or having had music training, I can only listen to internal logic and feeling, and these tapes fooled some pretty well-trained ears on their way to becoming physical product.

I recently revisited a great essay by Ricky Riccardi about speed issues on Louis Armstrong's Hot Fives and Sevens reissues (it can be found here).  While I can hear the differences between the various samples, what I can't say is whether any one of them is "wrong" or "right."  I especially liked his discussion on Cornet Chop Suey.

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12 minutes ago, mjzee said:

When I get it, I'll be curious if I notice the speed issues.  Not being a musician or having had music training, I can only listen to internal logic and feeling, and these tapes fooled some pretty well-trained ears on their way to becoming physical product.

I recently revisited a great essay by Ricky Riccardi about speed issues on Louis Armstrong's Hot Fives and Sevens reissues (it can be found here).  While I can hear the differences between the various samples, what I can't say is whether any one of them is "wrong" or "right."  I especially liked his discussion on Cornet Chop Suey.

When I was making corrections to the tape I had that ran slow when recording, so output was faster, it was easy to tell what sounded wrong - end of the tape was a whole step fast, making a tenor sound like an alto (ironically while playing Castle Rock) and the tune before was the fastest If I Were a Bell ever.  Of course, tempo can be up or way up, but you could just tell it felt wrong, and down a full step made it right.

1/2 step changes are definitely things you won't perceive as right or wrong unless you've got the trained ears for it. On the other hand, you do get longer tunes when you adjust ... this particular 90 minute tape yielded nearly 100 minutes of music!

If only more people went to concerts with dying batteries. :g

 

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I can't always be certain, but there's just something about certain people's tones/timbres where, yeah, it just doesn't feel right, soundwise, something in the pitch, the vibration of the notes. Sonny is definitely one of those players. He has so much sound in his sound, it's kinda like OH MY for me no matter what. But with all that sound, the changes are that much more "visible".

Unless it's really obvious, though, i don't let it ruin my day, if you know what I mean. Anybody who spends enough time in "private tpaes" gets used to it and is just thankful to experience the logic and the spirit, period. "Good sound" is just icing on the cake!

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1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Yeah, that's some deep, DEEP stuff, listening now, seeing if time has changed my impression. It hasn't. Free-association sonny at his free-est, and Han Bennick, like i said, throwing it ALL back at him, the back and forth between those two is most delightful!

And SO much tenor! All the Clonetranes who know every permutation of every scale...they don't get to THIS side of the tenor (usually). For that, you go to guys like Threadgill (when he played tenor), THAT kind of playing. Tone, timbre, fingerings, SOUND.

Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins! Sonny Rollins!

It's Bennink

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Indeed it is. But otherwise, no change!

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He's the reason I'll be buying this

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When I was a kid, I would sometimes play an LP at 45, or a 45 at 33, just to hear what it would sound like.  It was fun.

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There's that "famous" thing where Leonard Feather said that if you play a newer Coleman Hawkins LP at 45 that it would sound like Bird. Well I did that once and uh, yeah, I got the point about how developed Hawk's had become, but...no it did not sound like Bird. It sounded like a Coleman Hawkins record played at the wrong speed. The Nutty Hawkmunks or something. :g

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Loosdrecht runs slow (+38 cents to fix "Sonnymoon", +24 cents to fix "Love Walked In").

Here's my attempt to figure out the cuts on all of disc two - what a nuisance ... this is some of the greatest music ever to be heard, sound quality is only marginally better than the circulating version (in which, as some may remember, I had a hand in), actually makes me wonder what exactly was the source Resonance used, certainly not a pristine radio archive copy at all (I guess the NJA logo is there because of the studio tracks, LP side A/CD1#1-4).

 

:: Resonance Version ::

SIDE A (CD 1 #1-4) — Recorded at VARA Studio 5, Hilversum, The Netherlands on May 5, 1967
* Blue Room (4:49) — L. Hart, R. Rodgers / Warner Bros Inc. (Warner Bros Music Div.), Williamson Music Co. (ASCAP)
* Four (5:14) – M. Davis / Prestige Music Co. (BMI)
* Love Walked In (6:04) – G. Gershwin, I. Gershwin / Frankie G. Songs, Nokawi Music (ASCAP)
* Tune Up (6:57) – M. Davis / Prestige Music Co. (BMI)

SIDE B (CD 1 #5-6) — Recorded live at the Go-Go club, Loosdrecht, The Netherlands on May 5, 1967
* Sonnymoon for Two (8:13) – S. Rollins / Son Rol Music Company (BMI)
* Love Walked In (9:31) – G. Gershwin, I. Gershwin / Frankie G. Songs, Nokawi Music (ASCAP)

SIDE C-F (CD 1 #7, CD 2) — Recorded live at Academie voor Beeldende Kunst, Arnhem, The Netherlands on May 3, 1967
@ Three Little Words (22:25) – B. Kalmar, H. Ruby / BMG Firefly, Edwin H. Morris & Company, Inc., Ruby Harry Music Co. (ASCAP)

# They Can’t Take That Away From Me/Sonnymoon for Two (9:33) – G. Gershwin, I. Gershwin / Frankie G. Songs, Nokawi Music (ASCAP) & S. Rollins / Son Rol Music Company (BMI)
# On Green Dolphin Street/There Will Never Be Another You (15:00) – B. Kaper, N. Washington / Catharine Hinen, Pattie Washington Music, Primary Waves Songs (ASCAP) & M. Gordon, H. Warren / Four Jays Music Co., Mattsam Music, Morley Music Co. (ASCAP)

# Love Walked In (19:45) – G. Gershwin, I. Gershwin / Frankie G. Songs, Nokawi Music (ASCAP)

# Four (22:19) – M. Davis / Prestige Music Co. (BMI)


*) Resonance exclusive
@) complete on Resonance set, as well as in bootleg version
#) edited on Resonance set, complete/longer on bootleg version

sonny-rollins-in-nederland-1967-05-02.jp

 

:: Bootleg Version ::

 

Arnhem (NL), prob. Musis Sacrum (location wrong, aula of the Academy is correct, see post by @Caravan below!) – May 3, 1967

Sonny Rollins – tenor sax
Ruud Jacob – bass
Han Bennink – drums, congas

CD1/63:27
# 1. Love Walked In (George & Ira Gershwin) 22:35
# 2. Four (Miles Davis) 27:14
* 3. Old Devil Moon (Lane-Harburg) 13:38 [incomplete, cut]

CD2/75:24
# 1. They Can’t Take That Away From Me (George & Ira Gerswhin)
> Sonnymoon For Two (Sonny Rollins) 13:59
# 2. On Green Dolphin Street (Kaper-Washington)
> There Will Never Be Another You (Warren-Gordon) 19:50
@ 3. Three Little Words (Kalmar-Ruby) (22:39)
* 4. ‚Round Midnight (Thelonious Monk) (8:22) [incomplete, cuts in]
* 5. St. Thomas (trad.-Rollins) 10:34 [incomplete, fades out]

TT: 138:51

*) not on Resonance set
@) on Resonance set (both versions complete/identical)
#) edited on Resonance set

 

:: The Edits on Resonance ::

 

THREE LITTLE WORDS
no edits

THEY CAN’T TAKE THAT AWAY FROM ME > SONNYMOON FOR TWO (9:36 vs. 13:58)
two cuts, first one somewhere between 6:14 and 6:24 (missing ~6:20/:25 to 8:56 of the complete version, Rollins‘ re-entry @6:25 is @8:35 in the full version), second one later, couldn't really pin it down, but the drum solo is missing (~10:45-12:56 of the complete version).

ON GREEN DOLPHIN STREET > THERE WILL NEVER BE ANOTHER YOU (15:01 vs. 19:50)
@ ~6:08 there's a (barely) audible edit (pay attention to the bass drum sound chaning right after Rollins stops playing); missing roughly 6:15-10:50 (bass solo, rhythm duo, drum solo); the fade at the end is identical on both versions (which has me wonder about sources used by R ...)

LOVE WALKED IN (19:45 vs. 22:35)
~6:55: bass solo cut (~2:23 min; also cut some applause at end, ~0:25)

FOUR (22:21 vs. 27:14)
two cuts again, first is the bass solo, second portions of drums/fours; beginning to ca. 7:00 is the same on both versions, then the first cut takes place; Rollins‘ re-entry  @7:49 (Resonance) is @9:21 (Bootleg); then during the fours, there's another cut; from ~10:50 (Resonance) or ~15:35 (Bootleg) to the end, both versions are identical again (R cuts around 20 sec of applause at the end)

 

--

 

I'm kinda unwilling to look at this as gentlemen's behaviour. First, the rhythm sections is really firing it up and creating a great environment for Rollins to play in. Second, this environment is part of what keeps Rollins going - this is free-flow, free-association playing, and taking breaks, listening to the others, is part of the process. You don't just switch gears after four minutes and add another five, that's not how it works. And this is a live recording of great value and importance, and it really should not be treated that way - at least not in my book (doesn't compare to Columbia breaking up the Monk Quartet routine for studio recordings a bit, as those were artifical products made for a record, this is live, it's in real time, and adding cuts is really dubiuos, as a historian I'm inclined to call it revisionism).

These cuts, I guess, were mostly justdone to fit it all onto LPs. The four full tracks could not have been squeezed onto a disc, BUT the full CD2#1 would have fit onto CD1 if I got my math right!

So what it all boils down to: the uber-hip vinyl crowd is catered to, the recording twitched and defigured to better match their format ... and the same defiguration is used for CD/DL/whatever versions, which is TOTALLY BOGUS B-S UNNECESSARY.

 

Ok, done. And pissed.

Edited by king ubu

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9 minutes ago, king ubu said:

Ok, done. And pissed.

I was just about starting with disc 1 this morning. Now I'm scared! :lol:

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Well, the music is fantastic! But I guess we (I) should keep making sure the boot version doesn't go out of circulation.

And this is off-topic here, but you all know the Monk "Palo Alto" is running slow, too, right? Guess Mr. Feldman took the right lane this time (but it was still wrong, uhm....)

And apologies to y'all for returning after months with a rant and bad mood (which generally isn't the case, though the world - or rather: mankind - gives more than enough reason). Either way, heita! :) 

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king ubu:

Musis Sacrum is NOT the same as the Akademie voor Beeldende Kunst. The concert was at the aula of the Akademie. I was there.

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45 minutes ago, Caravan said:

king ubu:

Musis Sacrum is NOT the same as the Akademie voor Beeldende Kunst. The concert was at the aula of the Akademie. I was there.

Thanks, that's great to know!

The bootleg came with very little usable information, not even the date was quite clear ...

Oh, and how I'd love to have this memory!!!

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9 minutes ago, king ubu said:

Thanks, that's great to know!

The bootleg came with very little usable information, not even the date was quite clear ...

Oh, and how I'd love to have this memory!!!

There was another concert at jazzclub Persepolis in Utrecht, May 6. I was there too. Don't know if it was recorded.

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In the liner notes the guy who found the radio taps says he wasn't sure at first that it was Sonny.  Not to suggest that I would have recognized him right away either and given that we didn't know the date of the recording, who else might it have been? 

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Nobody.

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18 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Nobody.

I will cop to not being anything like the crazy loveable Sonny-philes here but Jeez, I'd like to think that even I would recognize mid-Sixties Sonny.

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26 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Nobody.

Really in 1967 who else could have it possibly been??

fwiw I haven’t received my copy - I guess I should have ordered from Amazon - would have been less expensive plus I would have my 3 CD set!! 

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22 minutes ago, Steve Reynolds said:

Really in 1967 who else could have it possibly been??

fwiw I haven’t received my copy - I guess I should have ordered from Amazon - would have been less expensive plus I would have my 3 CD set!! 

In fairness to the guy he didn't know what year it was from. 

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that's no excuse, unless he didn't know anything to begin with.

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