Jim R

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Go back 10 posts.

No Argo Transacord covers, but there was a certain Gene Ammons and friends at Montreux cover (posted by a gentleman in Tonyrefail, South Wales).

I was going to post the same link when I found this thread today. For those who didn't notice GA's post, this topic has already been done.

I usually go this route when I'm looking for one (maybe it will help you with the update process)... (and maybe you already thought of that )... https://www.google.com/search?num=100&newwindow=1&es_sm=119&q=organissimo+album+covers+site%3Awww.organissimo.org&oq=organissimo+album+covers+site%3Awww.organissimo.org&gs_l=serp.12...45229.48184.0.50391.6.6.0.0.0.0.186.641.4j2.6.0.ekp%2Ckpns%3D1000%2Ckpnss%3D100...0...1.1.45.serp..6.0.0.pQSYq-6dv2w

Randolph Mantooth The Gumm Sisters Reggie Tongue

Agreed. I'm no art expert, but I was thinking that some of the above are more abstractionist than surrealist. Fun gallery, at any rate.

To my way of thinking (just comparing the two by listening), this ought to be unnecessary, but numerous musicians have commented on this topic by posting below the related articles on various sites (NPR, as linked above; Rolling Stone, etc etc): "The minor descending line by half-steps is present in hundreds of musical pieces. So, there's no viable lawsuit. Moreover, the spirit line is the prosaic run-of-the-mill one. Led Zeppelin resolved it much more cleverly by going to Dm then Fmaj 7 then an open Gmajor hammered to Am, as well as having the high voice on the guitar intro ascend as the bottom voice descended. The MELODY of the Led Zeppelin song is nothing like the Spirit guitar intro. Nothing like Spirit. But the main point is that the descending line is common and not copyrightable. Moreover the law rarely adjudicates instrumental licks, but almost exclusively melodies and words. I'm a music pro with fifty years of experience. I know what I'm saying. Spirit should be embarrassed." "...the lament bass descension in the Am-AmM7-AM7-D/F# progression is a pretty common musical statement and shows up in different keys in a wide range of songs and styles in Western music. It's been around for centuries. Also, Randy California's chord progression in Taurus doesn't resolve itself in the same way that Stairway to Heaven does. Given that Led Zep and Spirit were hanging out for a time Page/Plant were probably influenced by California's use of the riff, but personally, I don't hear it as a ripoff. Page used the minor tetrachord with a more satisfying resolution and incorporated it into a better song." "As several people have pointed out Davy Graham uses the same device in his version of Cry Me a River in 1959, though Graham is playing in 6/8 time and Stairway is 4/4. http://youtu.be/tWeejHJxGjs Graham, IMHO, is playing a variation on a Robert Johnson blues turnaround. But the technique of a descending bass line against a minor chord is strongly associated with the operas of Monetverdi which is why musicians call it a "lament bass" (look it up). Beethoven uses the same device in the opening of the Moonlight Sonata (in Bm). Stairway is nothing like "note for note". I wish non-musicians would stop saying this. In fact the only notes in common are the bass notes and the first chord. After that Stairway harmonises the bass line in an entirely different way to Taurus. Harmonically the tunes have little in common. Hardly any of the notes are the same. The rhythmic pattern is different as well. Stairway emphasises the upper voice in the chord, which actually ascends the scale for the first 3 notes (a b c) whereas Taurus emphasises the bass note. There are many differences, but since the whole thing has been public domain *for centuries* who cares? You cannot plagiarise a public domain idea." ... and this interesting exchange: "Why are people (even extremely educated people) having such a difficult time seeing what is obvious to anyone with an open ear and an open mind? Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata indeed uses the same "lament bass" (as does "Michelle" "Beck's Bolero," "While My Guitar Gently Weeps," and many, many others) and indeed, also utilizes several similar chords and involves descending arpeggios (only on the piano as opposed to the guitar), as well, but that's not what's being argued here. What's being argued is that Zeppelin seemingly stole, almost wholesale, the complete guitar figure that comprises the intro of "Stairway." Did they add counterpoint melodic harmonies? Yes. Does the chord progression resolve (slightly) differently by adding a (brief) melodic ascension to resolve the progression? Yes to that as well. But none of this negates the fact that Zeppelin stole the essential underpinning guitar figure in question (starting at approximately 0:45 and ending at approximately 1:11 in Spirit's "Taurus") and recycled it as the underpinning guitar figure for the intro to "Stairway," and no amount of musical accoutrement will change that fact. While the chords themselves (and even the notes isolated within the respective chords) are not completely identical, the guitar figure itself is obviously borrowed in a way that I do not hear on any of the songs that you previously mentioned (and while I am not familiar with Montaverdi's 17th century operas, I am familiar with every other song you quoted). In fact, the only similarities that any of these other songs have in common are similar chord progressions and, in several cases, descending arpeggios, but I do not hear that same central guitar figure anywhere else. I'm sorry. You're obviously very well musically educated (much more, I'll confess, than I am), but I believe you're wrong about this." (and the response...) "You need to prove two things. 1. That Taurus is somehow original. It isn't, it's a public domain piece of music and has been for centuries. This is very clear. Spirit cannot claim to have composed either the musical device or even the guitar pattern (Davy Graham 1959 beats Spirit to the punch there). So the court case ceases before it starts. But you might still believe there is moral case to answer. In which case you need to prove: 2. That Page was specifically copying Taurus. Page is even more likely to have been influenced by another British Guitarist. Davy Graham's lovely 6/8 blues version of Cry Me A River from 1959 which predates both tunes.https://www.youtube.com/watch?... That said Page was using lament bass (in Am) in compositions as early as 1966 - Beck's Bolero - recycled in finger picking style as Babe I'm Gonna Leave You on the first LZ album. Taurus was said to be composed in 1968. Since Page was clearly exposed to the musical idea *before he met Spirit*, you can't prove that he copied from them specifically. In all likelihood they were both copying an existing piece of music - anything from Bach onwards might have inspired Page. It is true that Page and Plant plundered the 1960s British Blues repertoire to create many of their early numbers. And they've paid the price for being remiss in this area. But in this case it seems very unlikely and will be thrown out of court. I can't stop you believing what you believe. I can only show that it is irrational. I am not wrong. I'm self educated in music and did a little research to get up to speed on this issue - which very few other people seem to have bothered with." I also just came across this (I can't vouch for its accuracy, but fwiw...), here: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/led-zeppelins-stairway-to-heaven-targeted-for-plagiarism-20140519 "The following is taken from a guitar tab website: Many other versions of Taurus tab are incorrectly posted on the web with the first 4 bars of Stairway to Heaven tab. These 2 songs, based on a commonly used A minor descending chromatic walk are vastly different in composition and complexity. Only an amateur would confuse them for the same song. (This tab has been corrected by Joe Spadaro) Intro (4/4 time) Am Am7 Amm7 Am6 Am D Am G [ Tab from: http://www.guitaretab.com/s/sp... ] E-----5-------5---|-----5-----5-5---|---5-5-----------|-----------------| B-----5-----5-5---|---5-5-----5-5---|---5-5-----------|-----------------| G---5-------5-----|---5-------5-5---|---3-3-----------|-----------------| D-7-----7-6-----6-|-5-----5-4-----4-|-3-------0-------|------------5-/6-| A-----------------|-----------------|-----------------|-0---------------| E-----------------|-----------------|-----------------|-----------------| (Below is Stairway To Heaven intro tab for comparison.) Stairway To Heaven Led Zeppelin (1971) The resolve here is pure genius. Intro (4/4 time) Am Am7 Amm7 D F G Am F E E-------5-7-----7-|-8-----8-2-----2-|-0---------0-----|-----------------| B-----5-----5-----|---5-------3-----|---1---1-----1---|-0-1-1-----------| G---5---------5---|-----5-------2---|-----2---------2-|-0-2-2-----------| D-7-------6-------|-5-------4-------|-3---------------|-----------------| A-----------------|-----------------|-----------------|-2-0-0---0--/8-7-| E-----------------|-----------------|-----------------|-----------------|"

Another comment from the NPR page: "Randy California's estate should share the proceeds with the Pachelbel, Purcell, and Vivaldi estates, among others. That lament bass line has been around for centuries."

I was just reading a few articles about the story online. I read this piece at NPR: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/05/20/314256004/led-zeppelin-sued-over-stairway-to-heaven-guitar-line One commenter mentioned that the line had been stolen by Spirit, from a recording by a british folk guitarist named Davy Graham (from his version of "Cry Me A River", recorded in 1963). Listen at roughly 19 seconds elapsed, to 22 seconds elapsed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-2xz-ddK2s Not only did I expect this (I already mentioned the likelihood, above), but I expect that Davy Graham did not invent this musical sequence, either. It's far too straightforward a musical phrase for us to expect that it isn't as old as dirt!! I saw a new youtube video where lawyers and analysts were discussing this suit on a recent tv show. It was mentioned that legally, there's no need for an "expert" to make the plaintiff's case valid. All it takes, as she explained it, was for a group of "ordinary people" to listen to the two songs in question, and if enough of them agree that the complaint is legitimate, then it's legitimate. This gets to the core of what bothers me about this whole thing. "Ordinary people", in general, do not understand the intricacies of making music. To the average person, music is about fame and image and popularity. The average person does not understand how music works. In cases like this, instead of the emphasis being on education, understanding, and decency, it becomes all about lawsuits and sensational news stories.

Although I see it differently, I respect your opinion (sincerely), and I hope I didn't come across as too confrontational about it. I'm not sure I really care about this any more than Lon does (I won't be writing my congressperson), but as I reflect back on what I posted yesterday, I guess I was pretty fired up. And Bev, I agree- it could become an even more "slippery slope". Edit: It might go without saying, but I just wanted to add that I'm motivated to discuss this from a musical/musician's standpoint, not that of a legal or cultural activist. For me it's purely about the logic of the musical aspects involved here.

I think this type of view is too simplistic. Yes, I think it's highly likely that the STH intro was inspired by Taurus, but you yourself said that Page's approach was to say "here's what I would have done with it". This implies the very point that I tried to make, which is that what Page did was to change it (even if only slightly). It is different! How many examples from the history of music (or even just popular music) can be cited where people borrowed a phrase like this and created a variation on it? It's basically a simple descending chord sequence, and no doubt a very old one (in relatively recent times, songs like "Michelle", "Time In A Bottle", and "Chim Chim Cheree" use the same basic phrase). How is that something that someone ought to be able to claim as their own? The Taurus line is really fairly simple. I'm sure if we really wanted to, we could find other pieces of music that used the same phrase from Taurus, and perhaps more closely resembling it than the STH intro did (the Taurus line is simpler and more likely to be common to other songs, imo). I'm just really uncomfortable with the idea that a fairly simple and basic musical phrase like that is something that someone should be able to claim a copyright on. Would the Spirit members have objected so much about this "ripoff" if STH hadn't become so popular and such a big $eller? Of course not, and does anyone think that Taurus would have become a huge seller if not for STH coming along to steal that magnificent musical phrase from Taurus? Come on, now. I still think this particular complaint stinks, even not being a LZ devotee, knowing that they have been guilty of ripping off songs, and even knowing how much money STH must have made them. This wasn't a case of an actual song ripoff.

This. I have a ton of TF, and although this one isn't necessarily among my favorites, it's not going anywhere.

I'll preface this by saying that I'm not a Led Zepplin fan, and never really have been. I think they are over-celebrated, and STH has to be near the top of the list of all-time over-played songs (particularly in guitar shops). I know about some of LZ's ripoff history, but this one is a real stretch. Sure, the opening of STH was very likely inspired by "Taurus", with LZ having toured with Spirit. The intros are similar in structure. But they're not the same. Anybody with half an ear should be able to handle the quiz at the above link. It's an intro, for pete's sake (not a "melody", as some have referred to it, although STH's intro has more of a melodic quality to it than Taurus has). It's just a similar chord sequence. With different variations, and with very differing final measures. To me, it's kind of crazy for a complaint like this to surface, and it's sad what greed can do to people. As Bev suggests, this kind of thing only happens when big money is involved, and in this case, I hope it's determined that the plaintiffs have no case (and that's based entirely on my view about the specific musical sequences being compared here). Meanwhile, I'm glad I followed the story, because in the process I learned about the unfortunate but interesting story of Randy California's death.

Maxfield Parrish Mike Powell Marcel Proust

Tiki god Tiki with hair Tiki Barber (with no hair)

"The roster of greats who cut indelible sides for the label include Miles Davis, Art Blakey, Thelonious Monk, John Coltrane, Bud Powell, Norah Jones, and many more."

Gotta confess, Dan, I never listened to #15 (or #7) all the way through. Apologies for that, I guess I rushed myself based on my tastes (and my eagerness to get to the mystery tracks that were more up my alley). I wouldn't have gotten 7, but I hope you'll believe me when I say that I'm not too clueless to have recognized Louis (his voice, at the very least!). Thanks again for your efforts. It really was fun to revisit the B&B label, and make some new discoveries. That Gene Harris track in particular was a great listen.

Sh!t!!! I knew that tenor sounded like an alto. #3 is Louis Jordan: http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1044050/a/i+believe+in+music.htm "Irv Cox" on tenor... ?

11 (Sugar) = http://home-suite.blog.ocn.ne.jp/home_suite/2009/12/post_582d.html Rene Thomas was Belgian. I cared, and did more than a little digging, and couldn't find any matches. Gonna try again...

I tend to agree, except that I also identify with the popular music I was exposed to during my pre-teen years. So, I would probably say '56 to '76. For me, popular music began to sharply decline at the end of that 20-year period. Fortunately, that was just about that time that I got into blues, R&B, and jazz, which occupied me quite nicely as rock and pop were becoming less than appealing (to put it kindly).

Trying to narrow it down from these... Eddie Lockjaw Davis & Johnny Griffin - First Set / Live at Minton's John Coltrane And Johnny Hartman Kenny Burrell - Soul Call Dexter Gordon - Our Man In Paris Vince Guaraldi - Jazz Impressions Of Black Orpheus Lou Donaldson - Lush Life (Sweet Slumber) Sarah Vaughan - Sassy Swings The Tivoli Hampton Hawes - I'm All Smiles Stanley Turrentine - Bluish Bag / Prodigal Son (BN twofer material) Wes Montgomery - Movin' Along Paul Desmond - Bossa Antigua Roy Haynes - People

Thanks to getting hipped by this thread last night, I stayed up until 1:30 this morning to view it. Clear skies, warm night, good times. Inexperienced stargazer that I am, I thought I was seeing a very bright Saturn above and to the west. Turns out it was Mars. Oh well, at least I knew it was a planet.