Aggie87

Nobody's confusing anything. Power is an ingredient to hitting home runs, as is vision and hand-eye coordination. Strength DOES contribute to power, and affects how far a ball will go. If strength (of which additional strength can be attained through use of steroids) had nothing to do with bat speed/hitting distance, there wouldn't be a single baseball player using steroids. Obviously that's not the case. And those body builders you comically mention may have adequate strength, but may not have the other ingredients to being a great batter, or a great ball player overall. Nobody has ever said in this discussion that strength/muscle mass is the only contributing factor to hitting homeruns - that seems to be only floating around inside of your head.

Little support for Bonds WASHINGTON (AP) -- Only about four in 10 baseball fans are rooting for Barry Bonds to break the career home run record and most think he knowingly took steroids, according to a poll showing stark racial divisions in how the San Francisco Giants' slugger is viewed. Still, most fans think Bonds should end up in the Hall of Fame. He has 10 homers this season and 744 lifetime -- 11 shy of Hank Aaron's record, one of the most revered in sports. In the poll by ABC News and ESPN, 37 percent said they are rooting for Bonds to break Aaron's record, while 52 percent said they hope he falls short and 11 percent had no opinion. Twenty-eight percent of whites and 75 percent of blacks said they were hoping Bonds succeeds. Nearly three quarters said they think Bonds knowingly took the performance-enhancing drugs, which he has long denied. Just more than a third of blacks -- and three-fourths of whites -- shared that view. Of those who think he used steroids, two-thirds said that makes him a cheater -- even though major league baseball was not testing for the drugs at the time. There was no racial breakdown for that question. Nearly six in 10 said Bonds should be elected to the Hall of Fame, including majorities of both races. About as many said they believe he has been treated fairly, including a third of blacks and six in 10 whites. Of those who think his treatment has been unfair, more blacks and whites say it is because of his alleged steroid use than because of his race. The ABC-ESPN poll involved telephone interviews with 799 adult baseball fans from March 29 to April 22. Its margin of sampling error was plus or minus 3.5 percentage points. Those surveyed included 203 blacks, for whom the margin of sampling error was 7 percentage points.

The simple question then remains, why didn't Bonds hit homeruns at the same rate before he bulked up? Somehow, his miraculous, non-steroid induced, increased muscle mass caused his bat speed to increase.

Is anyone still getting 5.99? I got bumped up to 6.99 about a month or 6 weeks ago. Based purely on economics, it's still a good deal to be a member, though the shipping lag, selection, website, etc leave alot to be desired.

Remember though, it's normal for foot size to suddenly, strangely increase 5 sizes as a mature adult. And it's normal for a mature adult's head to suddenly, grow a few sizes too. Happened to goodspeak himself - totally normal, he assured us. My footsize and headsize have not changed in 25 years, and I'm 42. My belly - that's a different story.

In other words, you COULD prove it, but you're not going to. Fine. "Subtle nuances": 1. Vision - Gotta see the ball to hit it. 2. Eye-Hand Coordination - Gotta swing at the right time. 3. Power - the more power you hit with, the further the ball travels. What other subtle nuances do you think you can contribute to your argument? If power is irrelevant as you have been arguing, why isn't there a 11 year old playing in the pros? Surely there is some 11 year old out there that has great vision and hand-eye coordination, since that's all it takes to hit homer after homer.

Can't do it can ya?

And how DID you come to your conclusions?? Show me a scientific study that says muscles don't contribute to hitting power, then we can re-examine this. Until then, I'll believe that it does. If there was a universal belief that muscles had no contributing effect to hitting distance, then nobody would care about steroid use by power hitters. Clearly that's not the case in this country, outside of the SF Bay Area.

Earlier, your argument was that steroids can't cause increased muscle mass (which in turn increase power, and increase the distance a hit ball travels). Now you seem to be saying "ok I'll admit Bonds was wrong if it can be proven", and putting the bizarre argument about "power not being a contributor to how far a ball is hit" in a secondary mode. You're hedging your bet. As you said, "People just want to believe what they want to believe."

Will be interested to hear your thoughts about the show Matthew! Curious about what material other than Fear they'll perform, too. And curious about how hearing FoaBP live may affect your opinion of the material. I'm still going back and forth on the album.

Sonny Rollins - Sonny, Please v/a - Billy Strayhorn - Lush Life (Blue Note) Tierney Sutton - On the Other Side Brubeck Brothers Quartet - Intuition Smithereens - Meet the Smithereens The Little Willies - The Little Willies ...and Kenny G - I'm in the Mood For Love: The Most Romantic Melodies of All Time

Pay the Rent!

I don't understand...? OK, ask a body builder if he thinks 'roids will make you see the ball better or give you the skill to hit a curveball. I freakin' DARE you to. Any other justification beyond the reality of that simple point is patent bullshit...that or total Bonds envy. The largely white controlled media told you to believe so. You keep dancing around my point about muscle mass creating additional power, which can create home runs out of warning track hits. I agreed with you a LONG time ago in this thread that Bonds has superior vision and hitting skills. Why do you keep thinking this is the argument?

I talked with Harland about 6 weeks ago, after an SFJazz Collective performance, and he was VERY excited about the tour with Lloyd and Moran. I hope this quartet releases live/studio material. I'd love to see them!

Go back and read my (and others') comments in this thread, about why many many people believe increased muscle mass can cause a ball that would otherwise fly only to the warning track to be able to gain additional distance, due to increased power by the hitter. If you don't understand that, then there's no use in further discussing the point.

Nope. I'm not sure how you arrive at that conclusion. I completely disagree with that.

When did I say I didn't have a problem with Clemens? If he's been 'roiding, he's as much of a loser as Bonds is. My comments are about Bonds - if you wish to change the topic to someone else, by all means go ahead. My comments about Bonds still stand. I don't care whether Mantle was a drunk, or whether Ruth was, or anyone else. Alcohol isn't a performance enhancing drug/illegal substance.

I don't like to see a game decided when the best player on the Suns is on the sideline. At least it was a "hustle" collision, and not anyone getting intentially hurt. I was worried initially that Parker wasn't going to return, maybe having suffered a concussion or something. Hopefully Nash will be fine for Game 2.

Yeah, but he isn't playing for San Francisco....and he's the correct color. I have liked the Giants for years, dating to when I was a child living in California. My son's t-ball team last year was the Giants, and he loves to wear his jersey still, even though he's a "Husker" this year. My dislike of Bonds isn't his color or that he's playing for SF. I'm not sure why you think the fact he plays for the Giants has anything to do with anything. My dislike of Bonds has everything to do with him about to break the most sacred record in baseball, and perhaps all of sports. THE Home Run Record. The Home Run Record is about to be broken by a guy that's cheated to get there. That's the problem I have with Bonds. Quibble that he would have gotten 500 home runs without steroids, and I'd agree with you. Maybe even 600. But he wouldn't have the record in my opinion without his use of steroids. I'd love to see the home run record won by someone worthy of being on the same mantle that Aaron's held on by most people (granted, there were alot of mixed feelings about him back in the 70's, but I believe time has shown that he is a dignified, classy sportsman who is worthy of being called a sports hero). If that means Pujols some day, great. If it had meant Ken Griffey Jr, that would have been great too. I still truly don't believe race is the issue, at least for me. It's the fact that Bonds cheated to get THE most important record in sports.

Just caught up with Robert Fripp's Diary musings at DGM, and it appears he's working on a project with Porcupine Tree's Gavin Harrison. Thursday's entry: Friday: Gotta love that BB pseudonym!

Happy Birthday Yves!

bump... Surprisingly (to me), I found a used copy of "Personal Mountains" the other day locally. This is one I hadn't seen anywhere before, used or new, but after a couple of spins in the car, it's seems like it might be an overlooked gem. It was recorded live in Tokyo in April 1979, but not released until '89. It's the European Quartet (Jarrett, Garbarek, Danielsson, and Christensen), and the concert was roughly one week before the one that resulted in "Nude Ants". I like this disc so far - it sounds great, and the performance is great as well. If you don't care for Jarrett (or Garbarek), this probably won't change your feelings, but if you do, it's worth checking out.

That sounds like a band that Steven Wilson should check out for the next edition in his Cover Series.

A stray squirrel?