danasgoodstuff

Hang On Ramsey, assuming that was mine and not my parents. I blame Sloopy.

Billy Cobham - Spectrum (Full album) - YouTube I loved this, his first (?) leader date with Tommy Bolin, but never any of his other sessions under his own name. He could do all sorts of things, the version of Wave with stanley Turrentine is lovely and miles away from this.

I'm not going to try to argue that Natural Illusions isn't the weakest of Hutcherson's Blue Notes, but it's not unlistenable. And most of his '70s work for the label is strong, some of it as good as anything he ever did or anyone else on mallets ever did. Consider this from '75: Bobby Hutcherson - People Make The World Go Round - YouTube I think this is every bit as good as the version of this tune Milt did for CTI

Interesting stuff, thanks.

Were there ever?

Burrell's one CTI album is quite nice, largely because Kenny dominates it. Grant Green's one for Kudu isn't, largely because he doesn't. Listened to a bit of Goodbye and wasn't feeling it, but then Carter's over amplified rubber band was bugging me. Sunflower is soft-focus schmaltz, but they commit to it so it works for me. I bought cheap CD copies of Red Clay and Straight life, and the're ok but they definitely strike me as coasting compared to Breakin' Point or Blue Spirits. I like Speedball on Cherry, but a quick skim through didn't turn up anything else I liked. Love Joe F's Outback and Moon Germs but nothing else by him. Like Blue Moses 'cause it's weird. Like Concierto by Hall 'cause it's audacious. I have some Art Farmer on CTI but I can't remember, I think I liked the Debussy. I can deal with merely OK straightforward blowing sessions, fancy productions have got to totally work for me before I want to hear them at all. And funk that's slick is an oxymoron to be, it's gotta be raw. So there's a lot of BN after 70/71 that doesn't work for me either. I don't know if there's anything on CTI or Kudu that I actively dislike as much as I dislike the Mizell brothers' productions for BN. There's a lot of '70s R&B I'm not crazy about either. and demographically that's weird. It was the middle of the decade before I could legally drink in this country (Canada was a different deal). Big chunks of '70s rock do little for me either. It's not nostalgia, because I heard virtually no '60s BN til it was passe. I probably didn't hear much CTI as it was brand new, but more new-ish. People with fancy stereos bought them. Yes, I know I'm rambling. But there's nothing on CTI that even begins to compare to Blues & the Abstract Truth or signing Coltrane and issuing Africa/Brass - that's how you put someone in a new, bigger setting without cramping their style.

Sure, why not. But better to blame the people that buy it.

Yes, and folks are going to have different opinions about when it's right, and why.

Indeed, the thing is to find ways to not just slide along the curve but move things off the curve, if that makes any sense.

Until they didn't any more, and that seems to have happened fairly quickly. Business considerations like switching distributors no doubt factored in, that and the attention that entailed which left less band width for other concerns. And I would certainly agree that Francis was not interchangeable with Alfred, but almost nothing on BN from any period sounds like CTI to me. Not even the heavily orchestrated stuff.

I'm as big a fan of Alfred & Francis era BN as anyone and have mixed feelings about CTI, but there's something off about this analysis. Something beyond it just being too broad, which it certainly is. There's a sweet spot in terms of producer input, but it varies from project to project. My preference for BN Turrentine and Hubbard over CTI product by the same players only a few years later may have more to do with where those guys were in their artistic and personal lives and where the world at large was than with production choices, or some weird mix of all of the above.

That's one way to look at it. A simpler way is that Afred & Francis consistently gave me something I enjoyed listening to and wanted to find more of, Creed Taylor (CTI & elsewhere) not nearly so much.

So would I, I have all the BN & Impulse.

Nice rendition of Lee Morgan's "Speedball" on Cherry, if I was to buy a CTI Turrentine it would probably be this one. And I can't believe you don't know what 'slick' means and why it might be a negative for some people in some contexts. 'Slick' in several dimensions isn't my only issue with CTI, it's even a positive sometimes, but it's a big part of it. That and stiff and coasting/skating, and yes, they are.

Reading this and Billy Boy Arnold's autobiography and a book about American railroads

Joel Dorn did some interesting work with RRK and Yusef, among others. Very different in approach to Creed. Even at its most heavily produced CTI wasn't conceptual the way Dorn often was.

Beyond the Blue Horizon I can agree on, some very nice playing by George on there. Some players were more suited to the CTI approach and kinda slick was always a part of who Geo. is.

Interesting points, you obviously know the history in more detail than I.

Not sure I know enuff Milt to judge, but that at least seems plausible. Unless we count that Milt/Monk/Miles session for Prestige (it wasn't all issued together initially, but I had a reissue that put it all together), if that's in the running it wins.

Not for my $. I kind of regret not picking up a copy for $5 when I could have, but not that much. Can't imagine reaching for it ahead of any of the BN. I'm not even sure it's the CTI ST I like most.

Thanks, by the way it's Dana.

To me CTI starts strong with an impressive roster and distinctive look and sound, and then quickly hits a wall. But I don't track the sequence really well, so some of that may be more as I experienced it v. how it happened in real time. For instance, I own the first 3 Joe Farell albums on CTI and love 2 & 3, but have little to no interest in the rest. And yes I did hear them at the time.

Creed Taylor's work is for me very much a mixed bag. But a large and significant one. High water mark being founding Impulse! Low water mark being CTI going from high quality wine and cheese music to been open too long swill and cheese whiz very quickly. By his mid-40s he was done as far as any big impact goes. Yes, I'm being a little harsh but that's the thing to me - this is the guy that gave us Blues & the Abstract Truth and other exceptionally fine music. And was able to walk that tightrope between art & commerce about as well as anyone in the biz for a time. But when he fell, he definitely fell to one side. As an example, I think Turrentine and Crawford did much better work for Blue Note and Atlantic respectively.

Very nice, your enthusiasm comes through loud and clear.

I also remembered that Jelly Roll Morton did some nice trio recordings with various clarinetist and drummers, Barney Bigard, Omar Simeon, Johnny Dodds and his Baby brother. Thanks again for all the suggestions.