The Magnificent Goldberg

I'm sure you know much better than I do on this. (And Harold Arlen, too.) Yes, I think I've seen his name alone on credits. Thanks for the reminder. I meant honorary in the sense you used it - the latter list of songs I mentioned were all by foreigners. MG

Thanks Guy, very interesting. There's also the case where information inequalities make reaching a bargain difficult, which could be resolved by bringing the unequally informed parties within the same organisation. MG

Mr T Mr T Shirley Scott

Yes, I wasn't suggesting that the changeover was absolute. We agree that R&H was the changeover from R&H Yes - culture is the way people (whole societies) live; art is something that some people do for a living. I think you're right about all this, but I'm not sure that the lyrics are the culprit. Or not specifically. Berlin and Porter (and sometimes Carmichael) were about the only songwriters of the GAS period to handle music and lyrics. Porter was superb at lyrics; always, I think. Compared to him, Berlin was a journeyman at it. And Hoagy was often extremely naff (much though I love his songs). I suspect the problem with lyrics was singer/songwriters. As black popular music developed in the forties, singers, particularly the ones working for the indie companies, wrote their own material. Much of this material was not great - until Percy Mayfield emerged - but it reflected the way the black community lived and what they thought about and, importantly, was an utterly appropriate match to the delivery of the singer/songwriter (well, I supose there were exceptions to that). White popular music continued to be dominated by singers who did nothing else (Fisher, Como, Damone, Crosby, Sinatra) for a long time after the R&B singer/songwriter emerged. But when the pop singer/songwriters emerged, they were no better at handling music and lyrics than their predecessors in R&B (and, as Larry pointed out in his book, were actually worse because the fit between words and music did not reflect normal speech patterns). In contrast, songs by Bacharach/David, Goffin/King, Ashford/Simpson, Holland/Dozier/Holland, McDonald/Salter and many others, were significantly better crafted (again there are exceptions like Bill Withers). You've reminded me I left my heart in San Francisco Also, "The good life" and "More" and some Anthony Newley/Norman Newell songs - all 'honorary' GAS songs? MG

I think I was looking for songs that stand on their own. I do agree that those are great musicals but, since R&H, so many musicals have had their music so deeply embedded in their plots that they can't be heard to best effect separately - of course there are a few exceptions. But the older musicals produced a much more independent type of song (and maybe were worse musicals, as a result). I'm definitely thinking of these songs in the same way that Jim mentioned - independent of specific context, as he's talking about independent of performer. I'm also not thinking of the whole of the GAS composers' output. Much of it was pretty lightweight. I like "honorary GAS songs imported from other countries" We're very biased here. More important are capitalism, mass production, the internet, Coca Cola, MacDonalds (or hamburgers generally), jeans, franchising, sitcoms, Rock & Roll, fast food and soap operas. * MG PS - * forgot to include the most important - the American language.

Good question, too. I think I'd go for the Joel. Also "New York state of mind" - when was that? MG

MG So, who's Molly O'Day? MG

Insofar as one can trust pop charts from 1939 (not TOO bad, I imagine) Tobin sang on the following Goodman hits Blue orchids #7, 6wks What's new #7, 6 (B side of above) I didn't know what time it was #6, 13 Scatter brain #9, 8 These were Goodman's first hits on his new contract with Columbia, in the fall of 1939. No hits with Jenney or Bradley. MG

Looks a trifle awkward to me, but it may depend how you file your records. Seems to me that you would want one of those 4CD pages to hold only one artist, and so you're bound to have waste portions of a page all the way through. I go for Mark's solution - a new wing of the house. I'll soon be moving all the compilation tapes I made years back into the garage. MG

Bix Stix Dex

Which one? The one with McCoy, Bob Cranshaw and Elvin, or with Sonny Clark, Sam Jones & Louis Hayes? MG I meant the one on Matador with McCoy/Elvin/Cranshaw. Gonna have to revisit the other on Complete Quartets, I forgot about that one. I've a slight preference for the one on "Matador" but I think it depends on which version I've listened to most recently. MG

Never heard of him. and I saw that he was born in 1947 and died at 56 and thought, "how the hell coud he have been 56?" Then I notice that this thread is years old!! MG

Don't know - the LP "Julie is her name" (Liberty 3006 mono) came out in Jan 1956. Liberty only started up in 1955, which is when the LP was recorded, I expect. (I don't have a Liberty singles discography.) Were there earlier versions, I wonder? And who's Arthur Hamilton (the writer)? MG

Not necessarily jazz standards. It's unlikely that all, or perhaps even most, of the GAS material has turned into jazz standards. Think of songs like Porter's "Begin the beguine" or "I've got you under my skin" - hardly jazz standards (though there are some jazz versions), but well known. And there's a raft of material by the GAS writers that rarely surfaces - "Blah, blah, blah", "By Strauss" or "Of thee I sing" all by the Gershwins. MG

No, Willis Jackson did. With Wilson Pickett coming a close third to Clarence Wheeler & the Enforcers. Oh, that reminds me of another extremely difficult one. "If you need me" - Wilson Pickett (the original) or Solomon Burke? I really can't say (but baby it's cold outside). MG

Which one? The one with McCoy, Bob Cranshaw and Elvin, or with Sonny Clark, Sam Jones & Louis Hayes? MG

I was wondering when the GAS died. Probably in the fifties. "Cry me a river"? Well, a great, great song, with brilliant words - what could be better than "told me love was too plebian told me you were through with me and NOW (which should be sung/played triumphantly) you say you want me..." But does the fact that it was introduced (I think) in the film "The girl can't help it" disqualify it, in view of the class bias of the GAS? Or perhaps there were later songs that are genuinely part of the GAS... Some songs from "My fair lady"? "I could have danced all night"? Would you count that? Not sure myself. Or "West side story"? Nothing really, I think. And certainly nothing from "The sound of music". But there's Henry Mancini - "Days of wine and roses" from about 1962/3. Damn fine song. Gritty. Maybe too gritty. Despite the "and you", that's still a song about alcoholism (to me). Or a couple that Andre & Dory wrote - "That's how it went, all right" and "Goodbye Charlie" - but both about murder. So... Hm. And, who knows those songs ayway? Same goes for a couple of Tommy Wolf songs - "Ballad of the sad young men" and "Spring can really hang you up the most" (also I don't know when they were introduced). No Stephen Sondheim, or that geezer who wrote JC Superstar (are Brits allowed in the GAS? Is "The very thought of you" in there?) What do you think? MG

(Your love is) so doggone good 2nd - The Whispers 1st - Sonny Stitt (with Hamp Hawes) MG

MG - You may be interested in looking for the Jay Miller Series LPs that Bruce Bastin released on his Flyright label. They're out of print but might be available used in the UK. Fascinating series with lots of previously unreleased material that never made it to CD later on. Yeah, when I lived in Brighton, until '74, Flyright was just down the road in Bexhill. Bruce used to record Brighton jazz musicians I hung out with in those days, and I have quite a few of those - but I couldn't afford any blues in those days. Buying records of your mates is top priority, though, even if they're not brilliant, isn't it? MG

Harold Vick - Watch what happens - RCA Victor MG

Haphazardly, I think. We didn't have a record player until I was fifteen, and getting into R&B. But there was a fair bit of classical music on the BBC Home Service, and even on the Light Programme, in the fifties. So I heard the popular things. And there were music classes at school - not to teach us to play, but to appreciate. I started getting some classical music after hearing the MJQ/Laurindo Almeida version of the Rodrigo Concierto theme, and also their version of Villa-Lobos' Bach Braz #5. So I got the full Rodrigo concierto and one of the Bachiana Braz LPs. I bought a bit of choral music, too - which I thought was dynamic - Bernstein's Chichester Psalms; Elgar's Dream of Gerontius; Orff's Catulli carmina; Liszt's Via Crucis and Penderecki's St Luke Passion. But it was all just pretty nice music. It didn't GRAB me. Then I started hearing 19th C French chamber music, first the Debussy & Ravel quartets, then more of their other work, and Faure, Hindemith, Satie, Lekeu. Then moved onto larger French stuff, and smaller - I really got into Ron Smith's recordings of Alkan and songs of people like Poulenc & Duparc. I bought other stuff, as well - Brahms & Bach cello suites, and other stuff like that. But it didn't get me. So in the end, I decided I just liked French classical music because it was supposed to be entertainment; artistic entertainment, but in the end, showbiz. Then I couldn't afford to pursue everything, so I flogged all but one LP, which I do play sometimes, so I didn't get distracted from Soul Jazz. I certainly DIDN'T regard French Chamber Music as part of a seamless web with Big Jay McNeely and other honking tenor players Or Gospel music, Soul or blues. Maybe because I never really went in for modern jazz all that seriously. MG

I think, much though I've loved Otis for decades, that he has the second best versions of all those. No 1s would be "Respect" - Wayne Henderson & the Freedom Sounds - this version absolutely LEAPS! "Day Tripper" - Odell Brown & the Organisers "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction" - The Rolling Stones - I don't like the Stones at all, but I've got to admit... "Try a Little Tenderness" - Willis Jackson (the 1960 version with Jack McDuff, not his 1954 version, which s OK) MG I got to check out that Wayne Henderson version of "Respect"! It's on the album "People get ready" - Atlantic. Getting it out of the shelf, I see it's just credited to the Freedom Sounds featuring WH on the front, and WH & the FS on the spine, so you might need to search just for Freedom Sounds. MG

I think, much though I've loved Otis for decades, that he has the second best versions of all those. No 1s would be "Respect" - Wayne Henderson & the Freedom Sounds - this version absolutely LEAPS! "Day Tripper" - Odell Brown & the Organisers "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction" - The Rolling Stones - I don't like the Stones at all, but I've got to admit... "Try a Little Tenderness" - Willis Jackson (the 1960 version with Jack McDuff, not his 1954 version, which s OK) MG

BFT68 Well, I’m late, having been away for a bit. But here we are, at last. 1 Nice easy swinging side, with a pretty modern trombone player showing off his chops. There’s something familiar about the arranger’s style, but I can’t place it. Sounds as if it’s from California, however. Nice, but a bit too good for me. 2 Something a bit familiar about this, as well. Nice groove. The pianist reminds me of Duke Pearson, but the drumming doesn’t sound like his sort of thing. 3 This sounds like Jacques Denjean. Great groove! Nice preaching alto player. Wailing trumpet player. I’ve never known who was in Denjean’s band. Love this one! 4 The voicings on this sound South African. And now the solos start, this sounds even more South African. This is very good indeed. I don’t know who the sax players are. There is surely the legacy of Kippie Moketsi there. Some phrases sound a bit like Robbie Jansen. I’m really keen on finding out who this is. I guess one of the Louis Moholo groups. Never heard any of his stuff. Really nice! 5 This tune has a nice groove to it, though I can’t really be asked to count beats. But when the tenor soloist starts, he’s got a very ordinary sound and the solo sounds like jazz wanking. Guitarist has a bit to say that’s worth hearing, though I’m not keen on his sound, either. Pianist and guitarist both agree that the bass soloist hasn’t anything particular to say; their contributions during the bass solo are pretty nice. I think it would have been nice if the baritone player had got a solo in; he has a very nice bottom (and he sounds good, too ) 6 Oho, a blues from way back! Oh no it isn’t, they’re… well, I dunno, Guv. These guys have the capability of burning a hole in your soul, but don’t seem to care to seem so emotional and non-intellectual. Can’t understand why. Guess I’ll find out, if everyone else is raving about it. 7 Some outside stuff, but it starts off nicely enough. The alto player is really talking to me. Mm yes, this is real music! And what about the drummer! So much there with the alto player. Perhaps I haven’t got enough bass oomph on my computer but, until he started soloing, I couldn’t hear what the bass player was doing to well. But his solo had some stuff in it. I think these are musicians I’ll want to explore a bit. Thanks Joe (well, so long as it doesn’t turn out to be Kenny G). 8 Seventies sound. Trumpet led, by the sound of it. So the flute goes first; does that mean it’s his record? I generally can’t recognise flautists and this is no exception. Electric piano is also a bit hard for me, but I’m thinking, Bish. Perhaps one of his seventies Muse albums. I quite like this, but it’s not something I’d seek out. 9 Nice lazy groove, but solos that don’t seem to stir off the couch. Good for dozing. Funny showbiz ending; rather inappropriate. 10 There’s a sort of Pharoah Sanders feel behind the trumpet intro. Well, after 3 mins and a bit, they stir themselves up. I’m still not interested, however. Well, I quit half way through – sorry. 11 Sounds like Sun Ra on organ – or is it a harmonium? This one has very much the feel of a Pharoah Sanders ballad, without Pharoah. I think I’d really enjoy it if Pharoah came in. 12 Sorry, this cut is really not doing anything for me. Time for a quick cough and a drag. 13 This one, short though it is, is more of the same, albeit by a more positive player. Is this a Bud Powell tune? Is the pianist Hugh Lawson? 14 Nice bass intro, into REALLY nice tenor sound; thick and fruity down the bottom, tough and gritty higher up. I’m pretty sure I’ve never heard this tenorman before. Oh, this is getting through, all right! And a really positive pianist. I love his left hand! 15 I’m pretty sure this is a fairly well known tune – but I don’t know it. It just feels as if it ought to be a well known tune. Is it Major Holley on bass? Nice melodic trombone solo from someone with something of a Curtis Fuller sound until some way into the solo he lets loose with a something I don’t know the word for in trombone-speak. OK alto player. Nice in context. No, he’s better than OK. Nice, but not rave stuff. 16 Oh, here’s a tune I recognise, but don’t know the name of. Forties cut. This is pure Parker-style Bebop and anyone ought to be able to recognise who it is. But I can’t. I’d love to say the baritone player is Leo, but I really don’t think it is. More like one of those guys who played with Herman or Kenton. Ditto the alto player. But the sound of the drummer is kinda Kenny Clarke, so maybe… The alto solo seems really quite poorly recorded. 17 Sounds like a different version of “Appointment in Ghana”. Is this Jackie McLean? Freddie Hubbard on trumpit. But it’s only three minutes long, so it can’t be them, surely. I love the tune. And I don’t mind the showoff trumpet start. Not my stuff, but yes, OK. 18 Another tune I think I recognise. Damn good players, but I can’t get with them at all. Nearly eleven minutes is no encouragement, either. 19 Nice one, from the very beginning. Sounds like Blue Mitchell to me, but it’s a track I don’t recognise. Is that Horace Silver on piano? Surely not; it seems so unlikely for a BFT. It’s not Blue; when he returns he’s just a bit shrill. Carmel Jones? Not sure. 20 Early or mid fifties Bebop, I’d guess. Alto & tenor front line. Hm. Sounds like a Prestige jam session cut, but not one of Jug’s. And there should be at least a trumpet in there, if it was Prestige. I like the alto player better than the tenorman, who doesn’t have a very nice tenor sound. I should recognise the pianist but don’t quite. Interesting bass solo. Is that tenor player Golson? It’s a Golson-type tune, now it comes back at the end. 21 “Poinciana”. Well, a tune I recognise! Soprano & trumpet front line. Interesting approach to the tune, though I don’t like it much; it removes the loveliness of the movement of the melody. And the solos don’t give it back to us, except in snatches. Oh, and I really didn’t need a drum solo in there, guys. 22 Some outside organ, with alto. Good idea, but they seem to be getting in each other’s way, elbowing each other about, rather than co-operating. At about three minutes, it starts to make sense, because the organist is a bit more laid back and just droning, which was fine. But now they’re back at loggerheads again. 23 Amplified violin, with wah wah attachment? Once it settles down, this is really very nice. I don’t think I could take a musician for whom this is the only mode of expression, however. A good trick, is all, I think. 24 All sorts of stuff in here. After two minutes, there’s little happening; no movement; just static sounds. And after three minutes. I want to get on to track 25, but it seems churlish to just stop it with only two minutes to go. And perhaps they’ll break into, “We wish you a merry Christmas”, just before the end. Well, NEARLY!!!!! HA!!!! 25 Sounds like a rock singer. Well, that was interesting, Joe. And some of it really exciting. Thank you. MG

Thanks Al. MG