robertoart

I respect those whose training exceeds mine (I'm an ear player), to the extent that it's appropriate, but as a musician with decent ears, and a longtime jazz listener, I think I'd perhaps put myself in a slightly different gray area than that of a non-musician. Anyway, I think that "getting it" is possible without a high level of training, and I think there's a level of subjectivity in play here. In most such cases, yes, it's fair to offer this kind of criticism. "Oh but this guy is a LEGEND you can't criticize his note choice or phrasing or rhythmic feel, because he's a legend for a reason" doesn't wash. The "he's a legend" part was not the main point, and could have been left out entirely. I think I added that due to the laughable (even if true!) "I can do it better" comment from this guy (talk about something that "doesn't wash"), and just to emphasize the level of respect that someone like KB deserves. The point I was aiming at was that jazz artists (legendary and otherwise) re-harmonize, re-arrange, change keys, change tempos, etc etc, quite freely and often, obviously. In this particular case, is the argument that Burrell (on a recording that still has not been identified here, I might add) may have altered the theme statement only by subtraction, and thereby committed an "error" of some kind? I'm not buying it, but that's just my opinion, and I do think this is subjective. The part about Kenny playing at an "incorrect" (as opposed to non-original) tempo pushes the needle even higher on my nonsense meter. We DON'T know whether KB could have executed it at a quicker tempo or not, even if we agree that it's something worthy of criticism (I don't). Maybe sgcim can confront Kenny Burrell with that question. Thanks for the heavy lifting jimr.

Yes to that about Wes and Mel Rhyne. It's a very personal collaboration. You feel like they were like a big brother and a younger brother collaborating (and I don't mean that in a patronising way), but rather like family. The 'sound' on the first Riverside session is also dense and spacious, and I don't think Wes's guitar tone was ever captured better, at least until the less intimate 'arranged' recordings. You can really listen deeply, like a fly on the wall with that one. The Boss Guitar session is not recorded as intimately, but is still wonderful for the Wes/Mel double team and tunes.

Wow. This is sad news. I was just reading bigbeatsteve's post mentioning the album 'recorded live'. He'll be forever remembered for 'the Woodstock moment'. I also remember a quote in an interview with someone in a guitar magazine, waxing lyrical about the first time someone told him about John Mclaughlin... The guy said to him 'you've gotta hear this guy McLaughlin...he's faster than Alvin Lee Not really the point though is it?

And I'm sure Kenny Burrell is sitting on his couch - with his feet up - having his warm milk in his cup marked 'world's greatest Soul Jazz grandpa' - and reading this thread...thinking....geez I wish I spent another day on the head arrangement of 'that one'!

The second, perhaps. The first looks like a passport photo shot. Anyone who has a guitar in his passport photo is smug.

In most such cases, yes, it's fair to offer this kind of criticism. "Oh but this guy is a LEGEND you can't criticize his note choice or phrasing or rhythmic feel, because he's a legend for a reason" doesn't wash. There's a long tradition of older players coming down hard on younger ones for various deviations from "authenticity" when playing. The big example that comes to mind is inattention to detail to the lyrics of standards, leading to phrasing that sounds awkward or weak when you know the original sheet music. But there's no reason this can't cut the other way too. In this case, the essence of Oliver Nelson's writing isn't just the melody or the changes, it's the voicings in the harmony. That's the reason The Blues and the Abstract Truth is a top-100 jazz recording and every cover of it is just some dude blowing over a minor blues after playing the melody line. So unless KB (or another player) is doing something else that's equally hip on the head, it's fair to ask "why are you even bothering to play THIS tune rather than Equinox or whatever if you're not going to show that you've thought about what made the tune interesting in the first place?" ...adding to say, this is the same reason Larry Goldings's "Hans Groiner" character is hilarious. He's taking things to an extreme by not treating Monk's music with the same pedestrian attitude as 95% of players playing the tunes out of the Real Book. Only the gag in this case is that Groiner has thought very carefully about Monk's music...and as a result has made deliberate harmonic/rhythmic choices that are the exact opposite of what makes Monk's music tick, taking care to iron out every single quirk. Hilarious. Maybe. Sounds racist to me. Does he do it with a German accent? According to sgcim, Burrell 'has' made the attempt to deal with Nelson's voicings, but has not done the tune justice. Accept in the blowing.

Your cover is not showing? Maybe you're right though. . Maybe personally, I just have a highly sensitive paranoid 'smug' meter that goes off in my head. Perhaps anyone mugging for the camera with a happy and content face can be projected onto as 'smug'. So maybe a bit of 'poetic' licence to the term smug. But every time I look at these covers and think of 'smug' I can't help laughing. Especially those Classical ones Now that Mahavishnu/Devadip album. That is the worst kind of 'smug'. It is 'passive aggressive' smug . I have involuntarily sworn at that cover ever since I first seen it when I was about 14. Thank God they marginalised Larry Young on the packaging/project Orrin Keepnews is the winner. I agree. Rieu is 'smug'. Jeez I hope his 15minutes are over. Having never heard of the Mahavishnu album, I found one at a car boot sale yesterday. I had a little chuckle to myself as I flicked past it. The JPEG files just don't do it justice

Was this 'The Judean Peoples Club' or 'The Popular Peoples Club Of Judea', I always get these two mixed up. There was a third one as well I believe. Listening to extended Rock Guitar improvisation by Deep Purple, Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin b/w 14 and 16 was my catalyst for instrumental listening. During this time Band Of Gypsy's was on the menu as well. Band Of Gypsy's stayed with me, and seemed somehow more authentic and 'adult', while the others remain forever attached in my psyche to juvenilia. Heard Wes and Blood Ulmer at 17, Grant Green at 18. This connected me to the history of Jazz, The Saxophone and wider Black American Music. Also at the same time, met a slightly older Electric Blues guitarist while doing my painting Studies at Uni. He was a Blues purist who mostly disliked Blues Rock, and through his music collection, I was able to connect the worlds of Blues and Jazz. I was always trying to find connections between the two. I also read vociferously anything I could find about (or from the mouths), of any of the Artists associated with this music.

Yeah, I don't think groove is those guys strong point, although they obviously 'love the groove'. What you gain on the swings you lose on the roundabout. The thing for Zorn though, was that he was able to do his John Patton tributes with Patton in the band I love Zorn's playing on the DIW Patton sessions, and Blue Planet, but it still feels like Zorn's is a musical 'intervention' into Patton's sound world. The live gig with Ulmer and Previte though, is on another level. That one sounds much more organic and fluid. It is one of my favourite recordings ever. Blood Ulmer provides the bridge between Patton and Zorn, which shifts the music into something extra wonderful. Ulmer's playing makes this happen by stealth alone, almost. The fact they possibly did this gig without rehearsal and arrangements makes it shambolic and beautiful.

My first exposure to Organ was through the gentle touch of Mel Rhyne with Wes. It was a great pleasure to explore his later day recordings as well.

Captain Matchbox and Jimmy And The Boys. How could you describe that for American readers Captain Matchbox did some reunion Pub gigs here in Melbourne very recently. I thought to go but didn't. Jim Conway is regarded as an amazing Harp player, but has been stricken with MS I believe. I remember him playing with Brownie McGhee many years ago now. Some old Ignatius Jones hosted Countdown's were recently screened on Rage, after one of the clips (maybe Little River Band I can't remember), Ignatius turns to the camera and says...'plastic music for plastic people'. I cant believe there's a quad version of the Cpt. Matchbox Lp.

Lee Ritenour's version of Stolen Moments sucks.

It also funny how some posters (not many if at all here) have that uncanny knack of entering into a discussion and drawing attention to themselves and somehow making the discourse all about them.

So first of all, Burrell's performance of Stolen Moments is criticised by you as such - "and though he at least tried to use some of those cluster voicings that are the essence of the greatness of that tune, he fell far short of capturing it, either harmonically or even being able to play it at the correct tempo", fair enough if that is your perception, but then for good measure you add with a hubris that I never see here from the musicians who contribute - "And if you're saying to your screen, "Oh yeah, let's see you do a better job", the answer is, "yes, I can". Then later on Burrell's version is described by you as 'great'. Perhaps some consistency to go with your EGO? BTW what Burrell version are you talking about? Is it the one on Moon And Sand?

This thread has got me listening to KB again a bit more. it also coincided with visiting an Antipodean equivalent of 'the County Fair and hearing my old guitar teacher play for the first time in 15 odd years. Back then he was Scofield-ised in a very learned kind of way. So it was a nice surprise to hear him last week with an L5, reminding me so much of KB (and then some). The Velvet Glove was very much in evidence. And hearing him did my heart good. He might even let me hang with him in an 'over a cup of coffee' kind of way . So you should always be wary of making claims (sgcim), because like James Blood Ulmer said about his days on the Chitlin circuit 'there was always that 'one guy' - maybe in overalls who never left the farm much - whose guitar playing would run your ass right out of town'.

Just WTF does Ethan Iverson mean by a 'whiff of The Ray Brown Trios"? What he better mean is "predictably excellent" but in context, I don't think so. With Gene Harris, that "whiff" is fucking heaven if you ask me. No, Iverson did not make this statement. Iverson used the term 'Ray Brown Trios' to describe younger generations of musicians being complacent with a generic standard. Of course, with a masterful survivor like Burrell, the fine line between generic professionalism and complacency can be drawn. But it is not really a fair one when taken into consideration against the longevity and age of the man. I was just listening to Up The Street And Around The Corner, and there is a fire in that very 'straightforward' music, that is to me just heaven. I assume this is recorded with the guitar and tone jimr refers too. The 'Velvet Glove' is still incendiary there. And the music has that 'post Coltrane modal vibe' - cross pollinating with the 'Lounge vibe' that I just love. It maybe changes a bit later, perhaps coinciding with the 'Ellingtonia' era for the man. and the changing times.

I suppose Tristano is the original progenitor of the 'cryogenic purity' of 'the math' - Nothing Dirty.

I think he'd made his mark well before 1995. There is always a whiff of what Ethan Iverson calls 'the 'Ray Brown Trios' in much of Burrell's later day work, albeit through a veterans lens. But as MG say's, sometimes that what you need/want.

There is the sports beauty too, although this is not that beautiful. This is like county-fair beautiful, where you're supposed to like it barbecue WOOOO!!!! and then go home and wake up the next morning to do the chores, because that's what life is REALLY all about, all the while remembering that WOOOO!!!! that you got to see at the fair, last night/last week, last month, last year, that one time. Unless of course your gig is plying the county fair circuit, in which case you gotta look for that WOOO!!!!, keep it lively, and keep it ever WOOOO!!!ier as the years pass, because people got tv now. The 'math' perspective is all very well and fine if 'the math' existed in a rarefied 'atmosphere' all to it's own. But it doesn't. It especially doesn't in the various Fusion worlds. The social reality of the musicians (and the music) intrudes on it. Kinda like Sport and TV. Easy solution: Know before you buy. Yeah. But this isn't Home Shopping Weekly. Or is it?

The trio stuff and some other tributaries sound worthy for sure, but I think that many of the truly great musicians who thrive on diversity, have a consistency of aesthetic or even an integrity of vision that grounds their oeuvre - even when not matched by overall quality at times. Corea, I just feel, really 'believes' in the goodness of too many naff music environments. I know it still means his good stuff is good stuff, but it puts me off making the time to find out. I suppose this is why threads like this can be good for the 'naysayers' to dig a little deeper.

Math is a beautiful thing. But you gotta remember that it's math-beautiful, not woman-beautiful, or even perfect-high beautiful. Not everybody remembers, not all the time. Not that they always should. But... Yes it's a good thought and very true. However, I don't think that really can/or does stand alone as the overarching principle or even raison d'etre of the many tasteless projects Corea and others from his Mullet Fusion milieu pass off as creative music. Whatever beauty is in 'the maths alone' is defaced by the production/ electronics or general 'sports performance' heart that drives the aesthetic. Seriously, the 'maths' of some of this shit, is no more intricate on face value than the stuff a Kenny G might play. And even more appallingly - less earthy too. The 'math' of Coltrane is beautiful, the 'math' of some of those that stand on his shoulders less so.

A gazillion Guitar duet albums. One not mentioned is Emily Remler/Larry Coryell - Together. But in terms laid out by the OP, these are really the equivalent of Piano/Guitar or Piano Duet albums, such as perhaps the Larry Young/Joe Chambers Keyboard duets. What would be interesting guitar wise, would be duets where one guitar didn't fall into the default piano/harmony role. There are possibly examples of such a more fluid encounter. Joe Morris and someone maybe? Plenty of Derek Bailey collaborations must meet the criteria. Sonny Sharrock dueting with himself on Guitar. String Trio Of New York, Oh that's got Bass. Did Billy Bang do any duets or trio's that count? Also James Blood Ulmer's - Harmolodic Guitar With Strings, Ornette's - Skies Of America? Did Abdul Wadud, Arthur Blythe and Bob Stewart have a trio at one time?

What a great band Captain Matchbox were. A Jug Band. I was too young to buy albums in 1973, but have wonderful memories of Australian Music from that era on the radio and black and white TV. It was an oddball culture in Oz then, that produced a bunch of dags like Cpt. Matchbox. One of my favourite lines that made sense to me as I got older... 'Glen Waverley Imperialism is Here To Stay'. Nice People...Nice Houses.

Only ever heard this retrospectively, as i was an emergent Bay City Rollers fan when this came out originally. I bet not many had a copy of this in 1973.

Here's where the problem is: No one knows who the fuck you are. So saying "yes I can" just makes you an internet tough guy with nothing to back it up. You'd be better off making your criticism and leaving it at that. Or telling us who you are and pointing us to <i>your</i> record with the superior version of "Stolen Moments". When you tell us who you are, I'm sure we'll be able to see that you're the modern-day KB, having racked up dozens and dozens of sideman gigs, where your particular bag is always technically perfect.