robertoart

This is how I feel about Larry Carlton Lucky High School you must have gone too The Latin motto of my old High School - translated roughly as - 'find out for yourself'

Fantastic.

Exactly. And the Zorn crew also exemplified this (although in a more 'hands on' analog way). It is Post Modernism par excellence. And rather old fashioned now, when compared to the trajectories of other Arts disciplines who seem to have left behind the egalitarian juxtaposition of genre. That is, by not 'serialising', side by side, different genres, or 'collaging', as you say, in a 'cut and paste' process. The things I like about Glasper, and the movement he represents, is the way the stylistic influences are attempted to be 'contingent' within the overall form or integrity of the vision. I get the same feeling from people like David S Ware and Matthew Shipp in the Free Jazz continuum. Of course, this is the same thing Miles was doing with Bitches Brew and On The Corner, or Archie Shepp was doing with Attica Blues, or Blood Ulmer was doing with Are You Glad To Be In America. It's kind of a throwback to a Modernist 'cannabalisation' of influences. But it's not, because we now live in a post digital world.

How many musicians do you know that use a fashion coordinator? Unfortunately, he's not the only one that can't see past bad processed tone.

lon - pardon my ignorance - which album is this? It's the second album by the band "Free". . .selftitled (but not on the front). I have a pet name for this record, but I'll not post it. Rosebud?

That's great!! Yep. Enjoyed reading that. Jose toured Australia very often in the 70's and 80's. A big part of our musical landscape. He was almost as famous here as Rodriquez In fact Jose, Sammy Davis Jr. and various incarnations of Canned Heat and Steppenwolf seemed to be out here every second week

David's Tune and All The Things You Are from David Murray's album Children. A great rhythm section for Blood Ulmer and Don Pullen to guest with. Back in the day, the only way I got to hear the Ulmer track, was by subscribing to my local Public Radio Broadcaster. When I accosted the guy who used to import Black Saint into Australia, and asked him why I couldn't find any copies of this LP, he said he didn't really like David Murray, so didn't bother bringing any copies of this album into the country, accept the 1 copy he had himself He then said he would play it on the radio for me if I subscribed (which I did). When he back announced the track, I think he was a bit embarrassed about playing it, and said to the audience he thought the track 'went on a bit too long' , and that it was a request from, 'a new subscriber' . I also received a free Boots Mussulli album for subscribing , and he made a cassette copy of the entire Children album for me. Nice man he was.

Can you identify the naked females? I don't think this celebration of Jazz in an earthly paradise, is quite what Gauguin had in mind with his pervy paintings of pubescent Tahitian girls. But I like this one better. A good blending of Formalism and Content.

The nerd/geek turn in Popular Culture seems funny to an old fart like me. 'Pop Culture' - where were you when I needed you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SHi8zgiPks

Yep. And Affirmation by Jose Feliciano.

Put your glasses down.

I take from the piece that the 'jazz innovator' tag, is being used in an oblique way. Just the fact that so many other hip-op artists are being brought up in this thread already as an alternative story to Dilla seems to suggest the veracity of this argument. This is a key quote I think, "Jazz was born of a hybrid of folk musics," Osby says. "And for a long time, jazz has gotten away from that. It became so left-brain and strident, its purposefulness has been obscured. Hip-hop, with its loops and its emphasis on the low end, gives a healthy nod to the black mystique and the black struggle in the United States. A lot of intelligent jazz musicians have recognized that as something that they need to reinstate and reintegrate into the output, because it's been lost."

No

Yes I am a guitarist. I have addressed my comment about Ed Bickert in the 'Ed Bickert' thread Actually the Martino comment was on the Jazz Bulletin Board forum. Martino had his own thread where he answered reader questions over a number of years. He also generously shared his charts and teaching resources freely and enthusiastically. Unfortunately, some copyright pedant must have asked for the removal of this awesome material, as I have returned there when memory serves and found it all gone. Fascinating man is Pat Martino. Nice list of guitar players too by the way. Heavily populated, I see, by lots of other George Benson fanatics , but alas (I have to admit), all better guitarists than me .

That would be me. Yes Bickert is a great musician. No doubt. I think George Benson is a more important Jazz musician for a lot of reasons. I still prefer listening to Benson any day of the week. But Ed Bickert is a master at what he does. Glad you all have made that clear.

The fact is he 'did' become great. And he did it early on. He just didn't devote the rest of his life to following a 'guitar trio' format. He was an innovator (on his instrument at least) and will be recognised forever as such. This is beyond question. Whether you or anyone else likes or is attracted to the contexts (commercially or artistically) he chose to illuminate his guitar genius in, is always subjective. His guitar playing greatness is unquestionable. Lou Donaldson was/is a significant part of a certain kind of Jazz history, but he didn't change the way people played the saxophone. George Benson is part of the historical hierarchy of Jazz guitar playing. Like it or not, care less or not. I do like to ask questions; not much, for me, is "beyond question." You say he became great early on. Could you please list some examples (tracks and the albums they're on)? Please don't say "everything," because that's not really helpful. I'd like to understand more about what you're hearing and referring to. You also say he's an innovator; again, could you please list some specific examples? I'd appreciate it. Here is an answer via the brilliant guitarist Bobby Broom. This has been on the net a while. Everywhere I read the thoughts of African American guitar players, from major publications - to the darker corners of the internet - it's clear that George Benson is a cultural hero. http://www.jazz.com/dozens/broom-picks-benson

really who cares except for the people posting here. I couldn't buy a George Benson jazz album recorded in the past 35 years as apparently there arn't any. so he's not that interested or interesting, so why would anyone who is really into jazz/improv be interested. kind of like Herbie Hancock only moreso. so may great players today and we want to talk about someone who could care less about jazz - if he did he would make a fucking jazz record. This of course is complete crap. But somehow I still like the post.

The fact is he 'did' become great. And he did it early on. He just didn't devote the rest of his life to following a 'guitar trio' format. He was an innovator (on his instrument at least) and will be recognised forever as such. This is beyond question. Whether you or anyone else likes or is attracted to the contexts (commercially or artistically) he chose to illuminate his guitar genius in, is always subjective. His guitar playing greatness is unquestionable. Lou Donaldson was/is a significant part of a certain kind of Jazz history, but he didn't change the way people played the saxophone. George Benson is part of the historical hierarchy of Jazz guitar playing. Like it or not, care less or not. I remember reading this at the time. I kinda think Metheny is saying George Benson is 'great'!

I've got to agree with this. There are plenty of jazz guitarists I find more subtle and swinging than GB- Ed Bickert, Jimmy Raney, Tal Farlow (1950s), Jim Hall, Rene Thomas, etc..., however this is all just my opinion. I know you GB supporters can be a very vocal lot, and i wouldn't want you to strain yourselves needlessly. Benson lays more on the funk/blues spectrum than the swing spectrum rhythmically to my ears, and he and Rodney Jones can't be beat in the jazz/funk idiom. Even Pat Martino was quoted by someone when asked what he thought of GB, as saying, "I think he's a pretty good R&B player." Wrong. Martino and Benson have only good things to say about each other. The only slightly pejorative thing Martino has put on the public record is that he believes Benson's guitar abilities grew exponentially with his commercial desires. Otherwise, I would imagine they have some significant connections. Including Tal Farlow in a list of subtle guitarists is a bit of a stretch. Ed Bickert will always be high on the snoozefest register as well. Whatever energy Benson has devoted to 'real jazz' will remain fairly significant, and will continue to be a key component of Jazz guitar studies curriculum long after Organissimo readers, and 'the real jazz' enthusiasts, are dead and buried. Maybe Benson's guitar genius is mostly only apparent to other guitar players. Funny how Black guitar players continue to be marganilised as 'funk/blues' or 'Jazz/funk spectrum players. To say Benson or Rodney Jones 'dont swing' or are rhythmically streamlined is ignorant. Is there a Black guitar player you might put forward as sustaining your interest, or are they all too 'unsubtle' for your taste. Oh I suppose Wes Montgomery will be your answer?

Seriously, how many Free players sound like they have only been thinking with and playing the instrument for three months? Maybe somebody back in the day got some gigs or a tiny amount of attention on the momentum of a nascent Movement, and this probably pushed their development along at a faster rate than if they had been stuck in a room practicing ii/v/i's for three years. Even Sonny Sharrock went to Berklee.

And did the musicians who turned their backs on Jazz to be part of "The Studio" scene get such supposed vitriol. Or were they always lauded for their 'very creative' contributions to The Monkees or Steely Dan albums?

The angst against Benson is over rated. Who puts Benson down these days? Not many I don't think. He only had a handful of really big Pop hits anyway. I've never read or heard a guitar player (at least) that's had a bad word for him. Even his so-called Pop albums were full of brilliant contemporary Funk and Jazz playing. And not all of it was over-produced either. Although some of it was. And how big was his Jazz audience in the early days anyway. Hammond/Baritone combo's were hardly knocking them dead in Miles and Mingus land. I think all this George betrayed us bullshit was mostly retrospective. How many people were criticising the CTI albums that even cared for 'purity'. Everyone was being produced that way who wasn't in 'the chamber Jazz bag", not just Benson. We Want George! Even the clones are good, Norman Brown, Mark Whitfield, Lee Ritenour. Too much George is never enough. Another great George Benson moment is Jiimmy Smith's The Boss on Verve. You also get the greta Nathan Page. A equally brilliant player, but less hyper active.

Well with the 'Aylers, Shepps and Sanders' you have some of the most 'profound' sound or tone to come out of an instrument. Navigating your way through bop or even modal harmony is not the point. I always equate "poseurs" as usually from the Rock side of Modern music. In fact without the 'audience' you get the feeling the Rock Music 'spectacle' wouldn't come to life. Whereas, when you hear Ayler, Shepp or Sanders, it feels like the 'sound' each man makes from his instrument would have came to be, to quote Ornette 'of human feelings' alone. Really? I think you may have just proven my point. that is certainly true when it comes down to legends or non-legends from the 1960's. The great example was always Guiseppie Logan. the first generation of british/european free improvisors started to change that as they came from different traditions but only included the american jazz and free jazz tradition as a part of where they were coming from. They *know* they were not americans and that whatever music they were playing was a different music that many for years wouldn't even consider it jazz or even related to jazz. imagine hearing the Spontaneous Music ensemble circa 1973 with John Stevens, Trevor Watts, Evan Parker, and Derek Bailey with bot saxophonists squealing away on soprano saxophone and thinking jazz?!?!? - I don't think so. but today even as Branford imediatley commented, what Evan Parker does, if not anything else, is *formidable* so for at least 30 years, the technique and abilities of the established first generation or succeeding generations of free improvisors has not been in question. see ICP live with Han, Misha and the rest of those briliant musicians and let me know.... Not even God is formidable if he doesn't touch you. There are no absolutes. Yes there are. And there weren't many poseurs in the Free Jazz world. Just a lot of musicians who had some less than middle class lives and upbringings to deal with. Hopefully they were spared having a conservative and closed minded listener like you as part of their audience.